The world outside the dungeon

[S'mon]

Re advancement rate - my experience of 1e seems atypical; we were playing daily for many years and eventually PCs hit astronomical levels, yet I never had any trouble challenging them.

My experience of running 3e beyond 12th level was unhappy, I still run 3e but stick to the 1-12 level range. My first such campaign used half XP, we played through Lost City of Barakus and a bit beyond, going 1st to 9th. It felt very 1e-Gygaxian (much moreso than my actual 1e games!) with the 'tentpole megadungeon', and the PCs eventually acquiring power and influence as eg Cambyses, High Priest of the Temple of Girru, or Brassik, legendary dwarven playwright and owner of the Golden Axe Inn/Tavern.
My current 3e campaign is a linear 'save the universe' affair, I use full XP but it runs fairly infrequently, from 1st level the highest PC is now 8th, and it should go to 10th or so. It's notable in that NPC demographics are very different, NPC-class only and no 'ordinary' NPCs are above 6th level, even BBEGs usually cap at 10th.

My 4e Vault of Larin Karr campaign has reached ca 3rd level after 9 sessions, current play rate is around 12 sessions per year, standard XP. 4e has me wanting to run at higher level again though, and I'm thinking of increasing XP awards somewhat, especially quest & roleplay XP.

It's probably academic for me, but is there any reason not to use "E10", "E20" or "E30" rules in 4e? E30 would seem to give a more MMORPG experience - grind to the top then keep playing indefinitely.

 

[Raven Crowking]

As far as OD&D is concerned, this isn't actually true.

Depending upon what what means by "primarily", it isn't necessarily true of 1e either. If by "primarily" you mean only "Most adventures presume a dungeon component", then yes. Otherwise, no.


RC

 

[Bullgrit]

I just add up the ExP the monsters (or whatever) are worth and divide by the number of people who participated in the battle (or whatever). And I don't use ExP-for-treasure.

I've never really worried about "level of challenge"...

So, you seriously house ruled AD&D1 xp awards to make the calculation easier and advancement slower. (That's fine. Many people did so.) But then you complain about D&D3 by-the-book xp awards? You can house rule D&D3 xp awards just as easily, but you're somehow stumped, now?

This is like saying, "I like vanilla ice cream because I eat it nice and slow, and savor the taste. Chocolate ice cream isn't as good because I eat it fast and it gives me a frozen headache."

Bullgrit

 

[Votan]

So you're claiming that pre-3E there wasn't any treasure being rewarded?

Of course there was. And of course there was still a knock-on effect. The Iron Man Principle can't be escaped. You just didn't have a baseline to compare it to and throw yourself into a tizzy because you were "playing wrong".

I think that one could limit the Iron Man effect in two ways:

1) Make it hard or impossible to buy magic items (which I routinely remember in 1E)

2) Make most found magic items expendable (potions and scrolls, for example).

So long as you then used the exotic materials rules for crafting (with extremely tough quests involved) and nopticed the high, high levels required to enchant permanent magic items (enforcing CON drain for permancy helped too) then you could reduce the Iron Man effect somewhat as well.

I'm not saying that AD&D did not have flaws, but options in the (admittedly vague and unhelpful) crafting rules made it easier to moderate magic items. IN 3E the same strategy would lead to a lot of crafting.

 

[Witty Comeback]

So, you seriously house ruled AD&D1 xp awards to make the calculation easier and advancement slower. (That's fine. Many people did so.) But then you complain about D&D3 by-the-book xp awards? You can house rule D&D3 xp awards just as easily, but you're somehow stumped, now?

This is like saying, "I like vanilla ice cream because I eat it nice and slow, and savor the taste. Chocolate ice cream isn't as good because I eat it fast and it gives me a frozen headache."

Bullgrit

For the 3E monsters, there is no XP entry, only a CR entry. If you kill a CR 8 monster, and your party is composed of one PC each from levels 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, that is 5 calculations for a DM to make after consulting tables in the DMG. There is no flat XP award to tally and divide. To house rule it, you must come up with some rubric for what a CR is worth in terms of flat XP, and that is not necessarily easy to determine the reach the desired balance.

 

[S'mon]

To make the 3e system workable I award XP by treating the whole session as one encounter then award by EL, not CR. So eg 4 EL 1 encounters create the XP as for a single CR 4 creature.

 

[Bullgrit]

For the 3E monsters, there is no XP entry, only a CR entry. If you kill a CR 8 monster, and your party is composed of one PC each from levels 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, that is 5 calculations for a DM to make after consulting tables in the DMG. There is no flat XP award to tally and divide. To house rule it, you must come up with some rubric for what a CR is worth in terms of flat XP, and that is not necessarily easy to determine the reach the desired balance.

"To house rule it, you must come up with some rubric. . ." Ha! Y'all are making it sound like the D&D3 xp award system is some byzantine calculation that drives DM's insane, but the AD&D1 system is simple and straight forward.

You house ruled the AD&D1 system to make it simple and straight forward (it ain't nearly either, by the book). Do the same with the D&D3 system.

For instance:

Just say that a CR X monster is worth the flat xp awarded to a level X character. That is, a CR 5 monster is worth the flat rate it gives a level 5 character. If I remember correctly, this number is even bolded in the chart. How much easier can it get? (I've done this in my own campaigns.)

Bullgrit

 

[billd91]

You house ruled the AD&D1 system to make it simple and straight forward (it ain't nearly either, by the book). Do the same with the D&D3 system.

I always thought the 1e XP system was pretty straight-forward. Multiply the hp on the monster by a certain factor, add the rest, adjust down a bit if it was a cakewalk, and divide by number of PCs. And the values already in the DMG's monster appendix made picking the number of special abilities or super-special abilities (or whatever they were called) unnecessary.

I find the 3.5 system a bit more cumbersome, though not tragically so. It was enough to handwave any differences in level so I only had to run through the table-lookups and calculations once instead of once per PC not the same level as the rest of the party.

 

[MerricB]

For the 3E monsters, there is no XP entry, only a CR entry. If you kill a CR 8 monster, and your party is composed of one PC each from levels 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, that is 5 calculations for a DM to make after consulting tables in the DMG. There is no flat XP award to tally and divide. To house rule it, you must come up with some rubric for what a CR is worth in terms of flat XP, and that is not necessarily easy to determine the reach the desired balance.

That's the 3.5e rule, not 3e. In 3e, you use the average party level.

A Flat XP system was given in Unearthed Arcana.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

I always thought the 1e XP system was pretty straight-forward. Multiply the hp on the monster by a certain factor, add the rest, adjust down a bit if it was a cakewalk, and divide by number of PCs. And the values already in the DMG's monster appendix made picking the number of special abilities or super-special abilities (or whatever they were called) unnecessary.

It's that "adjust down a bit if it was a cakewalk" which actually was more involved than you make it look.

What you were meant to do was multiply the value by the ratio of the total party levels divided by the total monster HD, as adjusted for special abilities. (you added one to the HD total for each special ability, exceptional ability or hit point bonus).

So, a 4+1 HD ogre counted as 5 HD, a 6+3 HD mummy as a 12 HD creature.

So, if three 5th level PCs took out 3 Ogres, they'd get full XP; if 6 5th level PCs took out the same ogres, it'd be half XP. Oh, and you also need to check if the PCs totally overwhelmed the monsters to make more adjustment (If the party level was 10 times the average HD...)

Then, treasure XP was modified by the relative valuye of the monster(s) or guardian device... a subjective rating. Note that in Tomb of Horrors, Gygax actually gives the ratio: one XP for every 2 GP taken from the Tomb.

Cheers!