The Worship Points System

[Knight Otu]

No longer Ashardalon - I'm back to normal!

The Perry-Rhodan thread is posted now.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Epic Level Handbook FAQ

Hey Simon

quote:
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Originally posted by S'mon
Statting deities fits much better into the D&D ethos. If you don't want PCs squelching gods, don't run a high-level game,
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If your going to run an Epic (20th+) Campaign you really need to add deities into the mix, otherwise the whole thing is just going to fall flat.

Well, I can see a successful Epic campaign being run in a Christian mythos with powerful arch-devils etc as foes, without the need for God, Jesus or Satan to appear personally. Also a game might centre on trans-dimensional exploration and conflict within the Prime - a high-powered trans-dimensional enemy empire (like my campaign's Malgedan Empire, before its fall) could provide years of play without need for gods. Thrin doesn't mess with the Worldreavers, does he? >


quote:
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Originally posted by S'mon
D&D 3e is perfectly playable with nobody over 6th level if you like, although XP awards may need to be reduced if your game is combat-heavy.
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As we have grown to see over the years Simon, it is the mix of all levels (low-medium-high-epic-immortal) and covering a variety of settings and ideas (all as advocated within the WPS) that means our campaign never grows stagnant.

So you can have the best of all worlds: gritty (relatively) low powered mortal endeavours; weighty heroic high powered servant escapades and epic divine machinations where anything goes!

By adding the Worship Points System into the mix all the above become intertwined and amplified - even the endeavours of the lowliest cleric can be crucial in a deities plans and the events that require a deities personal attention can shake the foundation of the campaign world or beyond. So you've really got this whole campaign synergy going on!

I agree, that's what I aim for in my/our campaign. It ranges from very low-powered 1st level PBEMing to gods battling for the fate of the Multiverse.


quote:
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Originally posted by S'mon
If you have 20th+ level PCs, arbitrarily banning them from fighting deities is pointless. You can always make the gods 200th level if you don't want them to win!
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Although technically that would be the same as not statting them anyway - since you would arbitrarily determining the outcome.

No, it's not the same. Against a 200th level god the PCs can gate in a rival deity, or (possibly) teleport away, etc. Depending on the Physical Factor, they might even haul out a tactical nuclear device (unless the deity is Kossuth, perhaps)! >
Against an arbitrary, un-statted deity, it's completely up to GM fiat.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Knight Otu mate!

No longer Ashardalon - I'm back to normal!

Good to have the real you back!

The Perry-Rhodan thread is posted now.

Already had a look, I'll go over it in some detail shortly and I am sure I'll have a few comments/questions to add later!

For anyone whose interested, the Perry Rhodan Universe is akin to Epic Level Sci-fi with a lot of cosmological chicanery - I am sure most of what Knight Otu has converted could easily be dropped into existing Dragonstar campaigns, or used to introduce otherworldly resources for any D&D campaigns. On a more immediately personal level it presents a lot of campaign ideas (there for the taking) you may find interesting!?

Regarding crossovers with my own work, I think the Perry Rhodan Universe (or at least elements of the Universe) would be a plausible alternate setting for an immortal adventure or two, especially considering the storyline involving two universes bleeding into one another, very cool idea!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Epic Level Handbook FAQ

Hi Simon

Well, I can see a successful Epic campaign being run in a Christian mythos with powerful arch-devils etc as foes, without the need for God, Jesus or Satan to appear personally.

True, but then the Archdevils are of course 'gods' by another name.

Also a game might centre on trans-dimensional exploration and conflict within the Prime - a high-powered trans-dimensional enemy empire (like my campaign's Malgedan Empire, before its fall) could provide years of play without need for gods.

I suppose that would be possible, but why limit yourself unneccessarily.

To me what sets Immortal gaming apart from mere 'Epic' gaming was the relationship between deity and followers (then again maybe we've just been spoilt on the WPS!? )

Thrin doesn't mess with the Worldreavers, does he?

...and of course that would be nothing to do with them being backed up by the Chaos Gods: Mabelode; Xiombarg and Arioch.

Graz'zt and Thrin will get round to dealing with those interlopers in good time, don't you worry.

No, it's not the same. Against a 200th level god the PCs can gate in a rival deity, or (possibly) teleport away, etc. Depending on the Physical Factor, they might even haul out a tactical nuclear device (unless the deity is Kossuth, perhaps)! >
Against an arbitrary, un-statted deity, it's completely up to GM fiat.

Your point was to 'elevate the power of the deity so that mortals wouldn't defeat it', to me that is tantamount to arbitrary fixing.

Interesting point about Kossuth. You would surely have to assume he would be affected by the force of the blast. Then again as an Overgod he might survive a low yield blast (rated in kilotons) anyway.

Then again, nevermind nukes; Thrin was lucky to survive those auto-grenade launchers! Not to mention those anti-tank missiles you kept threatening me with!

 

[Anubis]

UK, I think I finally have the proof that refutes your proposed optional rules for armor and natural armor reducing dexterity. This proof also shows that the current system is in fact the most logical. If you've wondered why most people seem to be a bit hesitant about your optional rules, THIS is the reasoning that took me so long to put into words.

Your optional rules assume that dexterity is merely speed and agility, but that is not the case. Dexterity is ALSO coordination, reflexes, and balance. Your optional system would make armor and natural armor nothing more than something that reduces speed due to weight. "Because it weighs more and is more heavily fortified, your dexterity is reduced." The problem is that armor does NOT "reduce" dexterity, it "LIMITS" dexterity. In addition, if weight really was a problem that reduced dexterity, then strength would counter such negative effects. Natural armor, on the other hand, affects neither agility NOR dexterity, and should not reduce or limit dexterity at all. (Think of a turtle without its shell. Will it move faster or have better reflexes? Not at all.)

I believe that a human with Dex 12 in Full Plate can move just as good as Odin in Full Plate, mainly because Full Plate only allows so much maneuverability, and the Full Plate does not care if you are a god or not. It does NOT reduce dexterity, it LIMITS dexterity, which is what makes "Maximum Dex Bonus" the most logical system to go by.

If you were to persist in offering your optional rules, then you should have strength counter the negative effects of armor by allowing every point of strength above 10 reduce the dexterity penalty. (A human with Dex 18 and Str 10 would be reduced to Dex 10 in Full Plate, a human with Dex 18 and Str 14 would be reduced to Dex 14, and a human with Dex 18 and Str 18 would suffer no penalties at all.) I do not support such an illogical system, however. Like I said, it is not a matter of reduction, it is a matter of limitation. No matter how great your normal reflexes are, be your dexterity 12 or 112, armor only allows so much maneuverability.

Yes, I know the rules are optional, but why publish optional rules that make no sense?

By the way, I can also refute the "armor reduces damage" option by pointing out that armor ALREADY reduces damage, so to speak. Not technically, but effectively. Remember, the PH and the DMG state somewhere that a "miss" is not necessarily a literal miss, but just means that you fail to hit effectively enough to do damage. In other words, if you fail to hit, the armor negates the damage. (For example, a human with Dex 12 and Full Plate would have AC 11 without armor and AC 19 with armor. If the opponent rolls good enough to hit AC 11 but does not manage to hit AC 19, then the opponent still hit, the hit simply failed to do damage because the armor negated damage.)

What it all boils down to is BALANCE. The Core Rules are perfectly balanced (with a couple of anomolies here and there such as Haste and Harm) up through Level 20. I believe your optional rules would either unbalance things or not have enough of an effect to make a difference in the first place. That means that such rules, even though optional, are merely an encumbrance and have no positive effect on the game whatsoever.

Please do not take this the wrong way. I respect your work a great deal and anxiously await the results of your hard work. You are not perfect, however. None of us are. I figured that if I, as a gamer, can help make your finished product better to the benefit of all, then that is what I will do. This is constructive criticism, nothing more, and I hope you are not insulted by my thoughts on the subject.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Epic Level Handbook FAQ

True, but then the Archdevils are of course 'gods' by another name.

Yes, if you like. The Archangels too.


quote:
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Originally posted by S'mon
Also a game might centre on trans-dimensional exploration and conflict within the Prime - a high-powered trans-dimensional enemy empire (like my campaign's Malgedan Empire, before its fall) could provide years of play without need for gods.
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I suppose that would be possible, but why limit yourself unneccessarily.

To me what sets Immortal gaming apart from mere 'Epic' gaming was the relationship between deity and followers (then again maybe we've just been spoilt on the WPS!? )

Sure, I was just talking about ways to play Epic games. If you look at eg Diablo or other computer games, you have epic level characters eventually but few or no actual deity opponents. If I was running a game set eg in the declining years of the Malgedan Empire, when it was consumed in civil war, I probably wouldn't have any deities involved directly, but the Malgedans have/had so many Epic-level NPCs (rem the Sunguard were all 20th level+) that I could easily challenge a 40th-level PC party, say.


quote:
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Originally posted by S'mon
Thrin doesn't mess with the Worldreavers, does he?
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...and of course that would be nothing to do with them being backed up by the Chaos Gods: Mabelode; Xiombarg and Arioch.

I thought it might have more to do with there being 2 million of them at Level 5+.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by S'mon
No, it's not the same. Against a 200th level god the PCs can gate in a rival deity, or (possibly) teleport away, etc. Depending on the Physical Factor, they might even haul out a tactical nuclear device (unless the deity is Kossuth, perhaps)! >
Against an arbitrary, un-statted deity, it's completely up to GM fiat.
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Your point was to 'elevate the power of the deity so that mortals wouldn't defeat it', to me that is tantamount to arbitrary fixing.

There's nothing wrong with a game where gods have 2000+ hp and can easily squelch 40th level PCs. Many systems take this approach. To me it doesn't matter how high you set deity powers (except maybe in a closed universe), that ought to be a matter of GM discretion. Nothing wrong with having an official baseline either, of course. In my Ea: Time of Chaos PBEM a PC, Yukio, killed/destroyed (permanently) a minor deity, The One Who Is. The PC was the equivalent of about 10th level in D&D terms. Are you going to say I shouldn't have allowed that (despite all the ancient prophecies about the Coming of the Godslayer)?
Yukio was later hacked to pieces by some mundane cavalry troops, the equivalent of D&D 1st-level Fighters.


Interesting point about Kossuth. You would surely have to assume he would be affected by the force of the blast. Then again as an Overgod he might survive a low yield blast (rated in kilotons) anyway.

You only get a blast with air pressure, of course, and how much air pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Fire? And beings immune to physical damage (like Hel) would be unaffected by the blast wave.

Then again, nevermind nukes; Thrin was lucky to survive those auto-grenade launchers! Not to mention those anti-tank missiles you kept threatening me with!

In 1e/2e Thrin could just about survive 1 hit from a LAW on his home plane. In 3e he probably works out as a bit tougher.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

UK, I think I finally have the proof that refutes your proposed optional rules for armor and natural armor reducing dexterity.

Okay, lets examine the evidence.

This proof also shows that the current system is in fact the most logical.

I am always open to discussion...

If you've wondered why most people seem to be a bit hesitant about your optional rules,

If anyone was reticent about my ideas I assumed that was simply because they hadn't seen it fully explained in the final work yet.

THIS is the reasoning that took me so long to put into words.

I appreciate the help mate!

Your optional rules assume that dexterity is merely speed and agility, but that is not the case. Dexterity is ALSO coordination, reflexes, and balance.

I think I assumed all the above.

Your optional system would make armor and natural armor nothing more than something that reduces speed due to weight. "Because it weighs more and is more heavily fortified, your dexterity is reduced."

As it should be from being hampered by carrying an extraneous load.

The problem is that armor does NOT "reduce" dexterity, it "LIMITS" dexterity.

At best this is a subjective argument.

In addition, if weight really was a problem that reduced dexterity, then strength would counter such negative effects.

I do like this idea, and I have been thinking along such lines myself. Notably with things like the powered armour Simon loves to spring on me. Then again you wouldn't exactly call Ripley (from 'Aliens') spritely in her melee clash with the Alien Queen.

So you might have a case where strength/technology (and magic armor of course) would offset any possible negative dexterity modifiers (as, in effect natural armour) meaning that you would have a minimum Dexterity of 10.

Natural armor, on the other hand, affects neither agility NOR dexterity, and should not reduce or limit dexterity at all.

Natural Armor adds to weight which subsequently will reduce dexterity. The fact that a creature evolves natural armour means it will be acclimatised to its own bulk but it will still be slower than similarly sized (though not weight, since that is increased by armour) unnarmoured peers.

(Think of a turtle without its shell. Will it move faster or have better reflexes? Not at all.)

If you suddenly stripped a turtle of its shell it might not have any immediate effect (then again it would only have to move a fraction of its former weight). But if it evolved out of its armour then it most certainly would have an effect!

I believe that a human with Dex 12 in Full Plate can move just as good as Odin in Full Plate, mainly because Full Plate only allows so much maneuverability, and the Full Plate does not care if you are a god or not. It does NOT reduce dexterity, it LIMITS dexterity, which is what makes "Maximum Dex Bonus" the most logical system to go by.

Interesting hypothesis!

A byproduct of which is that it does make the option of wearing armour irrelevant given high dexterity.

However, if you were to apply strength compensators to Maximum Dexterity Bonus then I would be happy with that - since it more or less accomplishes the same thing!

In fact that might even be simpler (which is of course my mantra).

I will definately look into this particular matter.

Perhaps +1 strength bonus adds +1 to max. dexterity modifier, eg. Strength 24 allows +8 (+1/+7) Dexterity Modifier in Full Platemail...*wanders off muttering to himself*

If you were to persist in offering your optional rules, then you should have strength counter the negative effects of armor by allowing every point of strength above 10 reduce the dexterity penalty. (A human with Dex 18 and Str 10 would be reduced to Dex 10 in Full Plate, a human with Dex 18 and Str 14 would be reduced to Dex 14, and a human with Dex 18 and Str 18 would suffer no penalties at all.)

I agree with the philosophy, if perhaps not the mechanics.

I'm researching this point at the moment - not sure it should be a 1:1 swop yet (although thats obviously the easiest application), or if it should even have an effect beyond removing possible negative Dexterity Modifiers (see above 'Aliens' example).

Alternately it might be simpler to add strength bonus to max. dexterity bonus!?

I do not support such an illogical system, however. Like I said, it is not a matter of reduction, it is a matter of limitation. No matter how great your normal reflexes are, be your dexterity 12 or 112, armor only allows so much maneuverability.

In my estimation armour is limiting - but it does not impose a limit.

Then again if I can accomplish the same results without changing a core rule I may likely adopt this new idea instead (strength bonus adding to max. dexterity bonus).

Yes, I know the rules are optional, but why publish optional rules that make no sense?

Certain elements need to be addressed on a macroscopic level.

By the way, I can also refute the "armor reduces damage" option by pointing out that armor ALREADY reduces damage, so to speak. Not technically, but effectively. Remember, the PH and the DMG state somewhere that a "miss" is not necessarily a literal miss, but just means that you fail to hit effectively enough to do damage. In other words, if you fail to hit, the armor negates the damage. (For example, a human with Dex 12 and Full Plate would have AC 11 without armor and AC 19 with armor. If the opponent rolls good enough to hit AC 11 but does not manage to hit AC 19, then the opponent still hit, the hit simply failed to do damage because the armor negated damage.)

I understand the concept of armor and how it works in D&D.

While the mechanics are acceptable it doesn't negate the fact that in D&D armour seemingly deflects attacks rather than absorbs damage - as with the real world.

Think about it, who would take more damage from a grenade blast: a normally attired human or someone dressed in full bomb disposal armour!?

Now apply that logic to the fantasy milieu; who would take more damage from a fireball: an unarmoured human or someone in full platemail!?

Obvious isn't it!

What it all boils down to is BALANCE. The Core Rules are perfectly balanced (with a couple of anomolies here and there such as Haste and Harm) up through Level 20.

To that you can add the Vorpal weapon special ability and Challenge Ratings above 20.

I believe your optional rules would either unbalance things or not have enough of an effect to make a difference in the first place. That means that such rules, even though optional, are merely an encumbrance and have no positive effect on the game whatsoever.

Even at a fundamental level; the difference between natural armour and supernatural deflection must be determined. That point is already a non-negotiable fact - even whether or not you deign to acknowledge their differing applications.

eg. Graz'zt cannot possibly be allowed to have the same natural armour as Demogorgon, thats both insane and unbalancing.

However, anyone wanting to use the core rules regarding armour will only need to observe the distinction (natural armour/supernatural deflection) when they address improving either (with worship points).

To increase Natural Armour you refer to that table. To increase Supernatural Deflection you refer to its table. If you still want them both to apply to Armour Class then thats still fine; or if you want Natural Armour to instead apply to Resilience then you also have that optiontoo! Its really that simple!

Please do not take this the wrong way.

Of course not mate, you know that!

I respect your work a great deal and anxiously await the results of your hard work.

I appreciate the support mate!

You are not perfect, however. None of us are.

BLASPHEMER!

I figured that if I, as a gamer, can help make your finished product better to the benefit of all, then that is what I will do.

Thanks!

This is constructive criticism, nothing more, and I hope you are not insulted by my thoughts on the subject.

Not at all insulted, in fact flattered you would take the time to give me your thoughts and opinions on the matter.

If anyone else has any constructive criticism please feel free to proffer it.

Thanks again for the strength/armour inspiration Anubis mate! Definately worth investigating.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Epic Level Handbook FAQ

Hi Simon

by the way don't look at the time I posted this at - it may frighten you!

Yes, if you like. The Archangels too.

Absolutely!

Sure, I was just talking about ways to play Epic games. If you look at eg Diablo or other computer games, you have epic level characters eventually but few or no actual deity opponents.

Computer RPGs provide nowhere near the depth of pencil & paper equivalents.

If I was running a game set eg in the declining years of the Malgedan Empire, when it was consumed in civil war, I probably wouldn't have any deities involved directly, but the Malgedans have/had so many Epic-level NPCs (rem the Sunguard were all 20th level+) that I could easily challenge a 40th-level PC party, say.

I loved those guys as if they were my own...what a way to die! *single tear trickles down Thrins cheek*

There's nothing wrong with a game where gods have 2000+ hp and can easily squelch 40th level PCs. Many systems take this approach.

Thrin has 2000+ hp and can easily squelch 40th-level PCs.

Then again 40th-level PCs would be CR30 and Thrin is CR42.

I thought it might have more to do with there being 2 million of them at Level 5+.

Merely a minor nuisance, nothing more. They might delay Thrin, but its almost unthinkable that they could actually stop him! Then again, who knows what surprises they might spring...*remembering that encounter with the scarlet brotherhood assassins*

You only get a blast with air pressure, of course, and how much air pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Fire?

True enough.

And beings immune to physical damage (like Hel) would be unaffected by the blast wave.

Hel might not be so immune to all physical attacks in 3rd Ed. - at least using the WPS (I'll have to have a chat with you about that)

In 1e/2e Thrin could just about survive 1 hit from a LAW on his home plane. In 3e he probably works out as a bit tougher.

[Costanza Mode On]"You better believe it baby!"[/Costanza Mode Off]

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Hi Krusty,

When is WPS coming up? Any time soon?

*impatient*

Have you submitted something for R&R 2 yet?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Krusty,

Hi Zelda mate!

When is WPS coming up? Any time soon?

Still on course to have the writing finished in March.

I am actually in correspondance with a publishing company (more or less as we speak) with regards having the electronic product published - more on that when I can divulge specifics!

*impatient*

I know mate! This work was seemingly turning into my own personal Silmarillion!

Have you submitted something for R&R 2 yet?

I am sending it a bit later today, I only have a few things for them, I was disappointed they weren't going to take Prestige Class Submissions - since thats what I had concentrated on before the official Open Call was made.