The Worst Prestige Class Awards
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ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Out of curiousity, what game would be the right game if I wasn't having any fun?
Last edited:
RangerWickett
Legend
I hope everyone will calm down a little bit, since we don't want a flame war here. People disagree, so no big deal.
As a designer of many rules, including a lot of prestige classes, I try to make sure that they're balanced, because a lot of players like balanced games. As a game master and player, I realize that the average prestige class is less likely to unbalance a party than a character who rolls an 18 for his Strength. In truth, as long as everyone has a chance to contribute, either mechanically or dramatically, I don't care if I have a group with 10 1st level characters and one 20th level character. The goal is to have fun and tell a good story, and balance is not necessarily required for this.
I mostly just make magic-based prestige classes, because for non-magic classes, most of the abilities _can_ be emulated with feats. That being said, though, I tend to view non-magic prestige classes as a package deal, an easy way to balance a diversity of powers. I would let a fighter take "Third Hand" (a Lasher ability) as a feat, or take a level in the class, depending on how much he wants to devote his character to the concept.
Really, why have classes and levels? You could just make everything skill-based, letting you craft a character however you want. But then you lose some of the feel of D&D, which is that you can say, "I'm a 10th level fighter." Everyone knows you've got a pretty powerful combat character there, and it's easier to make a mental image of the power and role of that character. True, you'd have more depth if you said, "I'm Regdar the Mighty, who slew the white wyrm Calcryx only ten days after I left my warrior academy, and has since claimed the lives and treasure of a dozen more fiendish drakes."
Cool, we know a lot about you.
But from a rules standpoint, it's a lot easier to wrap your head around "I'm a 10th level fighter."
Likewise, prestige classes are a way to define your character quickly and easily. They're not necessary at all, but they are useful in helping players realize how their character is different from other characters. They're an interesting tool, but not for everyone.
Oh, and one last thing, on the matter of whether prestige classes should require organizations, consider this: if you say that some prestige classes can be emulated by feats, then all a prestige class inherently is is a combination of powers that a character can gain. If you don't require your PCs to join an organization to learn Cleave, Great Cleave, and Sunder, why make them _have_ to join one to become a Lasher? And if spellcasters can learn all kinds of spells on their own, who's to say that they _have_ to visit the library of the Loremasters to gain all the powers of a loremaster.
Don't decide whether you want an organization in your game. Decide if you'd have a problem with there being a character with a given power. Then, if the player really wants that ability for his character (and afterall, it's a communal game, so you shouldn't dash your players' hopes), then you could just say that he trains himself. Logically, if there are Loremasters now, or Lashers, or Ninjas of the Crescent Moon, or Void Disciples, then some time in the past, somebody was the first member of that group. If he could train himself, so can your PC.
The organizations are one way to explain a prestige class, just like saying, "I stab him in the lung with my sneak attack." There can be alternate explanations, though. "I jam my dagger into his wrist and dislocate his elbow," or "I stab him in the lung" are just two ways to describe +5d6 sneak attack damage. The rules are just mechanics, a skeleton. It is up to the players and the GM to decide what the flesh should look like.
As a designer of many rules, including a lot of prestige classes, I try to make sure that they're balanced, because a lot of players like balanced games. As a game master and player, I realize that the average prestige class is less likely to unbalance a party than a character who rolls an 18 for his Strength. In truth, as long as everyone has a chance to contribute, either mechanically or dramatically, I don't care if I have a group with 10 1st level characters and one 20th level character. The goal is to have fun and tell a good story, and balance is not necessarily required for this.
I mostly just make magic-based prestige classes, because for non-magic classes, most of the abilities _can_ be emulated with feats. That being said, though, I tend to view non-magic prestige classes as a package deal, an easy way to balance a diversity of powers. I would let a fighter take "Third Hand" (a Lasher ability) as a feat, or take a level in the class, depending on how much he wants to devote his character to the concept.
Really, why have classes and levels? You could just make everything skill-based, letting you craft a character however you want. But then you lose some of the feel of D&D, which is that you can say, "I'm a 10th level fighter." Everyone knows you've got a pretty powerful combat character there, and it's easier to make a mental image of the power and role of that character. True, you'd have more depth if you said, "I'm Regdar the Mighty, who slew the white wyrm Calcryx only ten days after I left my warrior academy, and has since claimed the lives and treasure of a dozen more fiendish drakes."
Cool, we know a lot about you.
But from a rules standpoint, it's a lot easier to wrap your head around "I'm a 10th level fighter."
Likewise, prestige classes are a way to define your character quickly and easily. They're not necessary at all, but they are useful in helping players realize how their character is different from other characters. They're an interesting tool, but not for everyone.
Oh, and one last thing, on the matter of whether prestige classes should require organizations, consider this: if you say that some prestige classes can be emulated by feats, then all a prestige class inherently is is a combination of powers that a character can gain. If you don't require your PCs to join an organization to learn Cleave, Great Cleave, and Sunder, why make them _have_ to join one to become a Lasher? And if spellcasters can learn all kinds of spells on their own, who's to say that they _have_ to visit the library of the Loremasters to gain all the powers of a loremaster.
Don't decide whether you want an organization in your game. Decide if you'd have a problem with there being a character with a given power. Then, if the player really wants that ability for his character (and afterall, it's a communal game, so you shouldn't dash your players' hopes), then you could just say that he trains himself. Logically, if there are Loremasters now, or Lashers, or Ninjas of the Crescent Moon, or Void Disciples, then some time in the past, somebody was the first member of that group. If he could train himself, so can your PC.
The organizations are one way to explain a prestige class, just like saying, "I stab him in the lung with my sneak attack." There can be alternate explanations, though. "I jam my dagger into his wrist and dislocate his elbow," or "I stab him in the lung" are just two ways to describe +5d6 sneak attack damage. The rules are just mechanics, a skeleton. It is up to the players and the GM to decide what the flesh should look like.
Crothian
First Post
ConcreteBuddha said:
I'm always try to discuss things civily. Hopefully, my reputaion around here shows that.
I've gotta make up this Chibby Chup prestige class.
I also like the definition it adds to characters. I think people feel better saying they have levels in lasher, then just having whip feats. It also gives a little more credence to NPCs when I can say that the Black Bart is not hust an NPC who pissed off the PCs, but a member of the Knights of Bolar.
You are right. More info needs to go into the training of prestige classes then in all the powers they get. It'd be great if a class said this ability is taught by doing this. That would add another level of detail to the game. I could role play through training sessions and really get into the characters.
Knowing what presitge classes are balanced for your campaign is really the key issue. Balance is a neat idea, but unless Monte is specifically reading my notes and blancing the stuff to how I run things, everything will not be balanced to my world. For instance the Arcane Archer (ya, not the best choice cause it is powerful, but it was the best example i could think of). I run a low magic world. A prestige class that allows all the normal arrows to be fired as magical is hugely unbalancing in my game.
The way I handle it is a PC says he want to go towards Chibby Chub prestige class. I've read it and know what it is. First, I think to myself "Does this fit his character?" some players just pick classes that have powers or look cool. I want them to fit the character and have the player role play his way into the class. In my opinion characters don't wake up one morning and decide to multi class (be it into a core class or prestige class). I want to be able to wacth you role play and be able to predict where the character is going. If you polay the character right, this should not be a problem for me.
Secondly, the class needs to be balanced. So, the sooner I know where the character is going, the more time I have to look over the class. I don't mind a power increase from the core classes. What I'm looking for is a power increase from the party. If I feel the class will do this I will either tone it down informning the player what I'm doing and why, or disallow it out right. I don't like doing that cause I like options for characters. I am always willing to work with a player to get theior character concept to work in my game. THis includes creating feats, skill, classes, anything. As long as the balance with the other PCs is there, almost anything goes.
THanks for spending the time to show me your side of the issue.
Chun-tzu
First Post
what i hate about PrCs
You know what I hate about prestige classes?
Let's say I've got an Evoker 6/Arcane Devotee of Red Knight 2/War Wizard of Cormyr 5/Archmage 1.
How the **** am I supposed to fit that into the "Class" section on WOTC's player character sheets?
Other than that, I love PrCs.
You know what I hate about prestige classes?
Let's say I've got an Evoker 6/Arcane Devotee of Red Knight 2/War Wizard of Cormyr 5/Archmage 1.
How the **** am I supposed to fit that into the "Class" section on WOTC's player character sheets?
Other than that, I love PrCs.
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Chibby Chub
Master of the swamps, the chibby chub is a warrior skilled in using her amphibious powers to thwart evil, wherever evil stalks the land.
Hit die: d12
Requirements
Race: Toad
Base Attack Bonus: +8
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Whirlwind Attack
Class Skills
The chibby chub's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Animal Empathy (Cha, exclusive skill), Concentration (Con), Jump (Str), Swim (Str), and Wilderness Lore (Wis). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier
Base Attack Bonus
As a Fighter
Base Saves
As a Fighter
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the chibby chub prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A chibby chub is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor and shields. Note that armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble.
Greater Constitution
At 1st level, a chibby chub gains the extraordinary ability to apply a +2 bonus to her Constitution score. This bonus increases to +4 at 4th level and +6 at 8th level.
Tongue Lash
At 1st level, a chibby chub gains the ability to do damage with an unarmed strike equal to an equivalent level medium-sized monk. For example, a 1st level chibby chub would deal 1d6 points of damage with an unarmed strike.
Bonus Feats
At 3rd level, and at 6th level, the chibby chub gains a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the fighter's list of available feats.
Supreme Whirlwind Attack
At 10th level, the chibby chub gains mastery of the secret knowledge of toad lore. With this ability, the chibby chub may sacrifice all her normal attacks to make one attack against all opponents within 100 ft.
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Master of the swamps, the chibby chub is a warrior skilled in using her amphibious powers to thwart evil, wherever evil stalks the land.
Hit die: d12
Requirements
Race: Toad
Base Attack Bonus: +8
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Whirlwind Attack
Class Skills
The chibby chub's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Animal Empathy (Cha, exclusive skill), Concentration (Con), Jump (Str), Swim (Str), and Wilderness Lore (Wis). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier
Base Attack Bonus
As a Fighter
Base Saves
As a Fighter
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the chibby chub prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A chibby chub is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor and shields. Note that armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble.
Greater Constitution
At 1st level, a chibby chub gains the extraordinary ability to apply a +2 bonus to her Constitution score. This bonus increases to +4 at 4th level and +6 at 8th level.
Tongue Lash
At 1st level, a chibby chub gains the ability to do damage with an unarmed strike equal to an equivalent level medium-sized monk. For example, a 1st level chibby chub would deal 1d6 points of damage with an unarmed strike.
Bonus Feats
At 3rd level, and at 6th level, the chibby chub gains a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the fighter's list of available feats.
Supreme Whirlwind Attack
At 10th level, the chibby chub gains mastery of the secret knowledge of toad lore. With this ability, the chibby chub may sacrifice all her normal attacks to make one attack against all opponents within 100 ft.
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ShaneHenry
First Post
Actually, wouldn't a 'chibby chub' be a freshwater cyprinid fish drawn in the 'child body' anime style?
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Hey, who made the stinking PrC, you or me?!?
Actually, a friend had a toad familiar named Chibbit. I decided to honor his memory.
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Chib chub? Chibby chub chub chub! Chub chibby chub chib chub, chub chub chib chibbit...
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Us Californians got something nutty in the tap water, let me tell you...
Actually, a friend had a toad familiar named Chibbit. I decided to honor his memory.
.
.
.
.
Chib chub? Chibby chub chub chub! Chub chibby chub chib chub, chub chub chib chibbit...
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.
.
Us Californians got something nutty in the tap water, let me tell you...
My new GM is planning to do something I heartily approve of: he will design prestige classes on the fly, and ignore entry restrictions other than "by invitation only". This way, the PrC can be tailored to the PC who is interested (is Bob lagging in power relative to the group? or dominating?) and characters don't need to be magically precognitive at 1st level about what PrC they will be invited to join 4 years down the road.
. . . . . . . -- Eric
. . . . . . . -- Eric
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