The WOW method to monsters? Would you hate it?

[Felon]

I've been hooked on WoW espically since out group decided to take a break away from RPGs until the summer was over. I've been thinking about the monsters and how they are protrayed in WoW vs. D&D. What I mean is that in D&D say Gnolls pretty much dissapear after 6th-10th level. In WoW the Gnolls grow in level with you as you go to different areas. It always bothers me that certain low level monsters drop out of the game (D&D) after a certain level. However the WoW method seems to wreck with the "reality" of the game. Would the WoW system bother you in D&D? Would seeing a tribe of 12th level Gnolls utterly bug you? What is your opinion?

Hmm. Tribes of monsters all the way up to CR20, maybe higher, just sitting around on their asses in a cave with their stone axes and clubs waiting to be killed by the PC's. Can't say the WoW approach really works for me.

The monsters don't drop out of the game. PC's find better things to do with their time than kill the same monsters they've been killing since 1st level.

 

[Dragonblade]

I should clarify that my game establishes high level NPCs and monsters from the beginning. Its not like PCs fight basic gnolls and as they go up in level, the gnolls go up in level.

Rather I start most games at about 5th level and the characters fight suitable challenges such as kobolds, who usually don't have as many class levels. Most monsters range from 5 to 15th level with elites in the 20+ range. This is established from the very beginning of my campaign so the players don't feel cheated or that they always fight monsters as tough as they are.

Once the players get to high levels then its not so much of adding more levels to the monsters but more a matter of having the PCs fight more of those monsters, with the occasional boss being on par with the PCs. Heck even kobolds can challenge epic characters if there are enough of them. 100 kobolds get 100 attack rolls with an average of 5 natural 20s per round. That means even some level 60 PC is almost guaranteed to get hit 5 times per round regardless of his AC bonus. My monsters also fight intelligently (to their INT score anyway).

They don't cluster themselves for easy Fireball targeting, they carry lots of arrows, and so on. Kobold sorcers use a lot of Magic Missiles and True Strike and so on. Challenging even the highest level characters is not an issue if you think about it, and adding class levels to monsters just makes it easier. 3rd edition is the best edition of D&D for that reason.

 

[Dragonblade]

I also have no problem with the PCs getting lots of magic and items. +1 swords are pretty much basic issue for raw recruits in most moderately wealthy nations. The average town guard is around 10th level and so on.

Rich or magically well equipped PCs have never been an issue for me in any campaign I have run. The bad guys are usually just as well-equipped so it works both ways.

And yet, my campaign is still as dark and gritty as any Warhammer or Black Company game. Its all about how you DM things and play up the atmosphere.

 

[Stalker0]

One of the unfortunate sideeffects of pen/paper roleplaying is that since combats take so long, dms have to be picky about what combats they throw at players.

An army of 100 orcs is just a boring trounce for a 10th level party...so its not worth running it in game.

A couple of things you can do:

1) Just have the party take out the mooks in "freeform." I just let the players trounce these guys in any way they see fit. They can cast their spells, do acrobactics, whatever...they are all at full hp and spells (or whatever they had before they started the combat) at the end. Its a fun way to let the players just have a little fun with monsters that should realistically be no threat.

2) Advance select monsters as others have suggested. Make a group of orcs with class levels. Set up a combat with special terrain and circumstances that give the orcs the advantage.

One of the things I've been enjoying with combats lately is trying to challenge players with circumstances, not CRs. Its fun trying to take a group of 5 or 6 CR 3's and seeing how I can challenge a 5,6,7, or even 8th level party. With the right circumstance, you can make those "chump" orcs a pretty decent threat.

 

[S'mon]

A tribe of 12th level gnolls would definitely bug me, unless maybe it was Yeenoghu's home layer of the Abyss! I pit 12th level PCs against 5th level gnoll elite warriors with maybe 10th level Champions & a 12th level Gnoll King, that's ok.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

A group of 12th level anything bothers me. Everything but the players should be level one, except for Mary Sue characters.

 

[Gez]

So, Whizband, your players only meet monsters, never humanoid villains?

Because Scarkos the Champion of Asmodeus isn't that impressive when he's a first-level warrior instead of an 8th-level fallen paladin/4th-level blackguard. Just saying.


I wouldn't use tribes of 12-level gnolls. The average NPC "mook" cannot be higher than level 5, as a rule of thumb. Anything higher than level 5 means that it could qualify for a prestige class -- and this, by definition, is only for specially prestigious characters.

So, a tribe of level 5 gnolls could be possible... If they live in a harsh, dangerous place that force them to fight constantly and push their limits always forward, they could be such. The tribe's leader would be level 12+, and a handful of other gnolls would have levels between 6 and 11.

Personally, I don't like "disappearing monsters syndrom". When you were first levels, there were kobolds and stirges everywhere, but now they've been replaced by ogremages and wyverns? Nah.

There are still kobolds and striges. But I don't go on full-scale combat simulation mode, I just hint that they've been quickly dispatched, and may arbitrarily say that one of the character has been wounded anyway (one kobold rolled a natural 20!), just to make it feel more real.

That said, there are two things that are true about encounter levels in my campaigns:

1. At low levels, you run away more often than at high levels.
2. As your power grows, you will less and less chance upon some encounter, and more and more seek them out.

The second-level travelers do not decide to be ambushed by kobolds. The same at 12th level may decide, on the other hand, to assault the kobolds' fortress and kill their dragon leader. And if they don't, they've got parallel dimensions and alternate worlds to explore anyway.

That's how I see it. What was a danger becomes a mere nuisance, and what was inimaginable before becomes the new challenge.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So, Whizband, your players only meet monsters, never humanoid villains?

Orcs, pies, and 10 foot square rooms. Anything else is an abomination.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I wouldn't have a tribe of 12th level gnolls. The vast bulk of them would be warrior 1 or 2 gnolls, just like they were at the start of the game.

However, all the gnoll tribes might put forward their mightiest champions and shamans for some evil plot... that's how I'd put together a group of 12th level gnolls to fight the PCs.

The PCs might conceivably fight this group, but I'd add at least one or more encounters with lower level gnoll mooks. Just to make it clear that all gnolls are not uber level heroes.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

One way of looking at it is to use the town generation rules out of the DMG for the tribe. It will give a spread of levels and classes, and you can assume that not all the gnolls are going to be warriors. Remeber, even gnolls have a society.

I have done this with goblins to good effect, when the PCs went down to the Goblin Market... it took a while, but they have come to fear the little blighters...

The Auld Grump