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Theories regaurding the change in rules of D&D.

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I'd like to read an explanation of this [the ripple effect] as well. I've read many comments about this "effect", but I've never seen anyone give an example of this happening.

I think the main source of this is the wealth and magic and CR rules.

Often, DM's don't want to give piles of treasures, and then are shocked, SHOCKED when PC's can't handle the encounters they're throwing at them, because CR takes character wealth and magic into account in a way that XP systems from earlier editions didn't.

Also, they are SHOCKED when the CR system doesn't accurately predict, say, tight spaces, or sub-optimal parties.

"You mean that just because my party doesn't have a cleric, I need to re-calculate every monster's CR?!"
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Olgar Shiverstone said:
I think if you go back and look at Ryan Dancey's essays, you'll find that they didn't set out to design 3E around these "assumptions" (your term) -- they instead tailored their baseline to more closely match how the average group surveyed actually played (parties of 4, 4-6 hour sessions, one encounter per hour, campaigns lasting 12-18 months tops, etc). The assumptions followed from a detailed study of the market; they were not pre-assumed tropes everyone was forced to accept.

Whether your group matches the base assumptions is another subject entirely.
And whether that research was even valid is another subject entirely as well. If you were over a certain age when that research was done, your input was auto-excluded; as this wiped out responses from many long-time 0e-1e types, I maintain to this day the results are badly skewed towards how younger people played, and mostly based on 2e play.

The most glaring difference is in party size. 1e assumed a party of 6-8 or more, including henches, NPCs, and players sometimes running more than 1 character at a time...and pretty much everyone I know played this way and still does. Now, obviously that's a small sample, but how many others are/were like this?

The other big difference is campaign length, but that's easily fixed by changing the level advancement table to slow things down.

Lanefan
 

Hussar

Legend
Lanefan said:
And whether that research was even valid is another subject entirely as well. If you were over a certain age when that research was done, your input was auto-excluded; as this wiped out responses from many long-time 0e-1e types, I maintain to this day the results are badly skewed towards how younger people played, and mostly based on 2e play.

The most glaring difference is in party size. 1e assumed a party of 6-8 or more, including henches, NPCs, and players sometimes running more than 1 character at a time...and pretty much everyone I know played this way and still does. Now, obviously that's a small sample, but how many others are/were like this?

The other big difference is campaign length, but that's easily fixed by changing the level advancement table to slow things down.

Lanefan

Auto excluded? I'm not saying your wrong, I've just never heard this one before. Citation?

1e may have assumed large parties, but, that doesn't necessarily reflect how it was played anywhere other than conventions. My experience was the opposite of yours with 3-6 PC's and no henchmen being the norm. Also, campaign length has always been the same for me - about 1-2 years before resetting.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Hussar said:
Auto excluded? I'm not saying your wrong, I've just never heard this one before. Citation?
www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/WotCMarketResearchSummary.html

You want paragraphs 3 and 4 in section 1.....

1e may have assumed large parties, but, that doesn't necessarily reflect how it was played anywhere other than conventions. My experience was the opposite of yours with 3-6 PC's and no henchmen being the norm. Also, campaign length has always been the same for me - about 1-2 years before resetting.
If memory serves, however, your campaigns haven't had the chance to go longer because you keep moving. :)

Lanefan
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
I wasn't moving all the time, and my main AD&D group was 3 players and 1 DM. 4-6 players seemed standard.

Note that this is also reflected in AD&D adventures... they began with "9-10 characters" and wandered into the 4-6 range by 1983-4.

Cheers!
 

Thurbane

First Post
JustinA said:
But, for me, it's a descriptor that's almost meaningless.

When you say it's "videogamish", what video games are you talking about? FPS? CRPG? RTS? Fighting games? Puzzle games? Side-scrollers? Adventure games?

I've never seen anyone explicitly provide answers to the question: What, exactly, about 3rd edition is more "videogamish" than previous editions? Name precise features. And tell me what video games you feel they're emulating.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
Well, what does beer and pretzels mean? Are we talking plain pretzels and domestic ale, flavored pretzels and imported lager, bread sticks and boutique draught? The possibilities are endless... :p
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
MerricB said:
I wasn't moving all the time, and my main AD&D group was 3 players and 1 DM. 4-6 players seemed standard.
4-6 *characters*, you mean. (pet peeve...)

Our games usually had/have between 3-6 players with parties averaging 7-13 characters, not counting oddities like rescued captives etc.
Note that this is also reflected in AD&D adventures... they began with "9-10 characters" and wandered into the 4-6 range by 1983-4.
Depends on the adventure, I think. They sometimes also gave an idea of how many total levels the party should have, which is a more useful guideline provided your party is almost all single-class characters.

A few modules suggest a party of 4-6 characters and then give a pre-rolled party in the module of 8 or 10...Quest for the Heartstone is one such, if memory serves.

That said, if the party being larger than expected makes the adventure a pushover, it's easy enough to beef up the opposition.... :]

Lanefan
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
Sorry - you're quite right. Characters! No, wait... I mean players. Or do I? :)

Looking at adventures...

I3 (1982) 6-8 players 5th-7th level. (Actually says players in text!)
I4: 6-8 PCs, 6th-8th level.
U1: 5-10 PCs, 1st-3rd level.
S3: 15 characters(!!) levels 8-12
WG4: up to 12 PCs, ideal for 4-8 characters with average of 8th-10th level.
S1: It doesn't matter. :)
S2: 4-10 characters, 5th-10th level
L1: 2-8 PCs, 2nd-4th levels
N1: 4-7 characters, 1-3rd levels
I8: 6-10 characters, levels 8-10
I11: 6-8 characters, levels 8-10
EX1: ?
D3: 6-9 characters, levels 10-14
A1: 9 characters, levels 4-7
G1-2-3: can be done with 3-4 characters; optimum 9 characters of average level 9 (or better).

I must be misremembering the numbers. I'm currently running an oD&D campaign (first time ever!) and you *need* the numbers due to high lethality at low levels.

Cheers!
 

fuindordm

Adventurer
Hussar said:
Auto excluded? I'm not saying your wrong, I've just never heard this one before. Citation?

I have this feeling as well. When 3e was announced, I jumped on the WotC message board right away. I and the other old-timers on the boards were told by a WotC rep that it was pretty much too late for our input to affect design decisions. Why? Because they had only two outlets for their research: Dragon and the RPGA, and apparently this had been going on for months.

It dumbfounded me that they never thought to put a notice in, say, one of their products. Don't most active gamers buy books?

Cheers
 

SHARK

First Post
Greetings!

Well, indeed, overall I would say that the more thorough rules of 3E have made the game easier to run, smoother, and more consistent. The game requires less "on the fly" rulings now than in previous editions.

That's all well and good.



Really.


However. As some members have alluded to, it's kinda hard to pin down exactly, but it's there none the less. The more rules in many ways act now to *inhibit* creativity and character options. It comes through the very process of defining everything.

Gain some followers for your journey? Sorry, Fighter. You don't have the Leadership Feat.

Your Rogue snarling at the jailer, and making efforts to seem tough and menacing? Sorry. Your character either doesn't have the Intimidate skill, or has only low ranks in it. Fat chance of you intimidating a snot-nosed kid, let alone the rough, beer-swilling jailer with a hard attitude.

Your Ranger character is chasing a brigand through the woods, and the brigand leaps into the river, and swims to the other side to make his escape. Sorry, your Ranger didn't put enough points into his Swim skill. You roll, try and negotiate the rapids, and you suck.

Your Ranger blubbers and thrashes in the water, and drowns.

Your Fighter is the son of a local nobleman, and he goes to a masquerade ball. While there, he attempts to flirt with several ladies-in-waiting, and gets into several discussions with a foreign ambassador from the northern elves, as well as a scholar discussing the empire's history.

Your "noble" Fighter either doesn't have Seduction/Diplomacy, Politics/Nobility, or History skills--or enough ranks to really make an effing difference, because Fighter's skill points suck bad.

In 1E, your character could do all of these things. There were no skills, per se. Below, I have pasted the above snippet examples, and depicted a 1E response, that shows some of the differences from having so many of the details...actually done out, and *specified* rather than purposely left *vague*

Gain some followers for your journey? Sorry, Fighter. You don't have the Leadership Feat.

1E--"Hmmm...right, right...your character does have a pretty good Charisma. Yeah, he should be able to recruit a good number of followers, or persuade some characters to be his henchmen. No problem."

Your Rogue snarling at the jailer, and making efforts to seem tough and menacing? Sorry. Your character either doesn't have the Intimidate skill, or has only low ranks in it. Fat chance of you intimidating a snot-nosed kid, let alone the rough, beer-swilling jailer with a hard attitude.

1E--"Hmmm...yeah, I remember your Rogue character (Thief!!!)--being from the streets, growing up on the docks, and spending lots of time hanging out with the rough crowd. Your character is usually played by you as a tough, ruthless bastard. You say all that to the Jailer? Ok, cool...yeah, the Jailer blanches at your snarling, whispered threats...he lets you through to have a chat with the prisoner..."

Your Ranger character is chasing a brigand through the woods, and the brigand leaps into the river, and swims to the other side to make his escape. Sorry, your Ranger didn't put enough points into his Swim skill. You roll, try and negotiate the rapids, and you suck.

Your Ranger blubbers and thrashes in the water, and drowns.

1E--"Right, right...yeah, I hear you. Your Ranger character has grown up in the Black Woods, and is an expert at wilderness survival, and living off the land, and all that. Of course he's an expert swimmer! Your Ranger leaps into the cold waters, and you catch the fleeing brigand in midstream...roll your attack...the brigand struggles to bring his dagger out to ram it into you desperately..."

Your Fighter is the son of a local nobleman, and he goes to a masquerade ball. While there, he attempts to flirt with several ladies-in-waiting, and gets into several discussions with a foreign ambassador from the northern elves, as well as a scholar discussing the empire's history.

Your "noble" Fighter either doesn't have Seduction/Diplomacy, Politics/Nobility, or History skills--or enough ranks to really make an effing difference, because Fighter's skill points suck bad.

1E--"Oh yes...the ladies...you have a 15 Charisma...yeah, they giggle, and respond well to you...what do you ask them again? You should be able to get at least some good information about the rival noble from them..."

"True...your Fighter character is well-versed in the politics of the Northern Elves. Your father took you on several trips there when you were a teenager. Yes, you impress the ambassador with your skill, and your knowledge of his homeland, and the political difficulties he faces with the new trade agreement."

"Hmmm...quite right. Yes, your Fighter character was trained at the university...he's very knowledgable about the history of the empire...what do you say to the scholar? yeah, you should do pretty well, all things considered."

As can be seen, all of the situations in 1E did not require a dice roll, or even a rule. Your character largely just *did it*--with perhaps an occasional roll for something especially challenging or demanding. In 3E, if something isn't very easy--DC 10--a low-level character, especially fighters, for example...have a high chance of absolute failure.

In 1E, there was more room, *creatively* wise, that you could improvise such, without reference to a required, specified skill/feat/ability/roll, and just *do* or have a good chance anyways of doing, simply by background, roleplaying skill, or assumed knowledge. In 3E, of course you can handwave such, or add some kind of bonus to justify it, but there's a certain mechanicalness involved, and a higher basis for failure of reasonably challenging topics for beginning characters, or even higher level characters, if they don't have the required skills even then, by the mechanical rules subsets, to necessarily accomplish the same things that a character was assumed to be able to do or know in a 1E game, for example.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

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