Theory: Fighters have Encounters, Wizards have Dailies...

[Remathilis]

Part of the problem I see a lot of people have with the current system is that the layout of the power structure. Specifically, some have difficulty with the concept of a martial daily power, and the balancing of them against wizard spells.

I can't imagine how you could house rules this, but imagine a different 4e...

Both Martial and Magical (arcane, divine) classes have at-will powers. However, Martial characters only get encounter powers (at a much improved rate) and magical classes only get daily "spells" (again, at an increased rate.)

Martial power is now based on tactics and learning. Most monsters won't fall for the same trick more than once an encounter (be it a feint, trip, or such) but a fighter has a large assortment of tricks now to use in an encounter. None hit with the same power of a wizard's spell, but they refresh every encounter, so a fighter is much more likely to use them.

A spellcaster has a few weak spells (like at-will magical missiles or encounter-based healing) but his strength comes from powerful spells which he can use a limited amount of times per day. A spell has a wider array of effects he can accomplish (invisibility, flight, summons, area-effect) but he must be cautious on using them too quickly, lest he run out and resort to his weak at-wills. So fireball might return to being a daily, and its power gets a significant upgrade.

A lot of other elements wouldn't need to change: rituals could still bridge the gap for non-combat magic, and the old rules of memorization and spell level need not return. Fighters and other martial characters would play more like Bo9S characters (perhaps with skill tricks added) and casters would look more like traditional 3.5 casters with built in reserve feats (or a touch of warlock added). Most importantly, they'd FEEL different; a fighter gets in and goes nova through his encounter powers tripping, wounding, weakening, disarming, and slowing his foes (knowing they'll all be back next fight) while a wizard has to be more demanding; do I use fireball now, or simply gun him down with a magical missile?

Could it have worked? Would it work better? Discuss?

 

[FireLance]

The same people who had issues with the "15-minute workday" in 3e will have similar issues with this system. Basically, the wizard will spend all his dailies early and often, and then the party will take an extended rest.

Of course, if you never had problems with the "15-minute workday", this approach could work.

 

[justanobody]

The same people who had issues with the "15-minute workday" in 3e will have similar issues with this system. Basically, the wizard will spend all his dailies early and often, and then the party will take an extended rest.

Of course, if you never had problems with the "15-minute workday", this approach could work.

Will somebody explain to me the problem with a "15-minute workday" in the game, when you don't have some timed mission?

Does it really matter how much in game time passes? Are you chasing someone across open country all the time, or some clock is ticking away that you need to get something done by tomorrow?

 

[FireLance]

Will somebody explain to me the problem with a "15-minute workday" in the game, when you don't have some timed mission?

Does it really matter how much in game time passes? Are you chasing someone across open country all the time, or some clock is ticking away that you need to get something done by tomorrow?

Let me first caveat (again) that not everybody will find it a problem. After all, generations of gamers have got along fine with fighters and thieves basically having at-will abilities and clerics and magic-users basically having daily abilities. What tended to happen was that the spellcasters would ration their spells, so that they were used sparingly, and over the course of an entire adventure.

The "15-minute workday" throws this assumption out the window. Basically, the spellcasters use their abilities early and often, possibly over the course of just one or two fights, and then the entire party goes back to town (or whatever) and rests. This tends to have two effects that some people find undesirable:

1. Because spellcasters are able to concentrate a large amount of power in a very short time, they seem to be more effective, and take up much more of the "spotlight time" than non-spellcasters.

2. In order to maintain the level of challenge for the players, the DM has to increase the numbers or deadliness of the monsters.

Timed missions actually reduce the problem of the "15-minute workday" since they force the spellcasters to ration their spells, which brings them more in line with how they tended to be played historically.

 

[Remathilis]

The same people who had issues with the "15-minute workday" in 3e will have similar issues with this system. Basically, the wizard will spend all his dailies early and often, and then the party will take an extended rest.

Of course, if you never had problems with the "15-minute workday", this approach could work.

One would hope the availability of semi-useful at-wills (better than a crossbow, but less than a 1st level "spell") might mitigate the 15 min workday (or reduce it to 30 min, at least )

To that point, I'm not sure wizard "encounter" powers really mitigate 15 min workdays; they delay them for sure, but it still seems dailies and heal surges are the prime drive of resting.

 

[FireLance]

One would hope the availability of semi-useful at-wills (better than a crossbow, but less than a 1st level "spell") might mitigate the 15 min workday (or reduce it to 30 min, at least )

To that point, I'm not sure wizard "encounter" powers really mitigate 15 min workdays; they delay them for sure, but it still seems dailies and heal surges are the prime drive of resting.

I think the key improvement in 4e is that it's no longer just the spellcasters that can go nova and get the glory. The party as a whole might still be resting after short adventuring days, but the spotlight time gets shared around a bit more.

 

[I'm A Banana]

There are debates about whether or not 4e at all resolves the problem of the 15-minute workday, anyway.

The idea is, whatever "limited" abilities you have, you will use early and often and then retire.

If you have any daily abilities, they will be spammed in the first few encounters of the day.

If you have any encounter abilities, they will be spammed in the first few rounds of the encounter.

Generally, this is less a problem for encounter abilities, because the game naturally "rests" after an encounter, so it feels natural to have the characters rest, too. But a "per day" ability doesn't line up with when the game naturally rests, so it can feel forced, unnatural, and overly strategic when the characters blow their wad all at once and then go home for the night.

So the idea is that "per-encounter" powers are ideal. In fact, having any per-day abilities whatsoever means that the 15-minute-workday might be a problem.

All that said, the core of the theory in the OP is a really good one. Part of the reason a lot of people don't like the iron-fistiness of the 4e Powers system is that "everything plays the same," and this would go a distance to alleviate the problem.

I'm not sure it goes far enough, though. It's a start, and it probably would've made people a little more amenable, but I'm not sure it solves the core issue with the Powers system being quite restrictive with the different mechanics it will allow.

 

[justanobody]

Timed missions actually reduce the problem of the "15-minute workday" since they force the spellcasters to ration their spells, which brings them more in line with how they tended to be played historically.

Ok so why didn't the rest of the party just carry on and let that wizard be in danger and have to hide because they didn't work WITH the rest of the group?

Wizard blasts something first, then the rest of the group rushes in during the confusion and starts hacking away while the wizard plots and plans....dear Ao I think I see and understand why the wizard got the role of controller...

But anyway...the wizard wasn't useless when out of spells, just not supposed to waste them all up front, and those players caused the problem, not really the system. So why blame the system?

Sure they couldn't do as much during melee, but they could be a part of it.

Well a wizard with an iron-shod quarterstaff was nothing to really laugh at. It isn't what you have to use, but how you use it that matters, so people were really just letting wizards players abuse them if they didn't want to always keep camping for the wizard?

We left wizards behind and they learned...boy did I learn, not to just waste all your spells up front because you never know what is around the next bend or corner.

 

[FireLance]

Ok so why didn't the rest of the party just carry on and let that wizard be in danger and have to hide because they didn't work WITH the rest of the group?

Because of point 2, above. If the DM plans the encounters around the assumption that the spellcasters will be using their spells early and often, pressing on after the spellcasters are out of spells is a good way to get the entire party killed.

But anyway...the wizard wasn't useless when out of spells, just not supposed to waste them all up front, and those players caused the problem, not really the system. So why blame the system?

It's not so much a case of blaming the system as it is of "playstyle-proofing" the system. Of course, as this thread shows, removing a problem for one subset of players may create another one for another group.

 

[That One Guy]

To the OP, I think that a system derived from that could create a 3.5++ or something. 3.75ish? Not sure. It sounds like it would be taking elements of older D&D that a lot of people liked and combining it w/ a lot of the 4e stuff that grew out of the Bo9S experiment. It sounds like it could be fun.

Would the casters prep spells old school style? Or would they know a group of spells and choose one when they use a daily? What would one do w/ a magic/warrior hybrid? a few combat tricks and a few spells, but not as much as either?

...I can imagine a few different systems. Are you thinking of trying to design something like this?