Theory: Of M.I.C.E. and Men - a better GNS?

[The.Droog.Of.Elenar]

Hi all-

Sorry for dropping this whopper on my first post. In reading all the squabbling over GNS and it's kin, I was drawn to something I'd read in a book on writing Science Fiction and Fantasy by Orson Scott Card.

Considering that all RPG's Fit into the Sci-Fi / Fantasy category in one manner or another, I put forth the idea that role players are essentially craving and exploring in the same manner as readers. As such I think a better base to work from is that of M.I.C.E.

Here is some of what Mr. Card has to say on the subject:

http://triton.towson.edu/~schmitt/311/pages/tsld004.htm


"M.I.C.E. QUOTIENT

*
Milieu - The Milieu is the world--the planet, the society, the weather, the family--all the elements that went into creating that special world.

*
Idea - Idea stories are about the process of finding information.

*
Character - The Character story is about the transformation of a character’s role in the communities that matter most to him or her.

*
Event - Event stories focus on events which rip the fabric of the universe or disrupt the natural order and cause the world to be in a state of flux.


Notes:

M.I.C.E. QUOTIENT

All stories contain four elements that determine structure: Milieu, Idea, Character, and Event. While each is present in the story, one generally dominates the others.

Which one dominates? The one that the author cares about most. This is why we often consider the process of discovering the structure of a story a process of self-discovery: What is your story about? Who is the central or viewpoint character? Where is your story set? What is the purpose of your story? Once you have considered each of those questions, then you can ask, Which aspect of the story matters most to you? That is the aspect that will give you your story's structure.

Let's take each element in turn and look at the structure that would be required if that is the dominant element in the story."

For more info Follow the link.

Thoughts?

Edit: The link is to a Presentation by Dr. John L. Flynn, based on Card's M.I.C.E.

 

[arscott]

I'm not a g/n/s expert, but It seems like the entire MICE model is a means of describing the story of the RPG, and therefore be sort of a subsection or a means of describing the Narrativist portion of the g/n/s model, rather than describing the game as a whole.

 

[Jim Hague]

As a point of order, all RPGs do not fall into the fantasy/sci-fi category. Plus, that 'category' is so broad as to be meaningless. Mr. Card's model is...interesting, but I'm not sure how applicable it really is.

 

[Umbran]

I'm not sure this winds up as a particularly good description for gamer motivations. It does not, for example, treat the "gamist" attitude well.

It seems to me that the basic problem with GNS is that it's too much theory, not enough linkage to real people and real games. But there is a similar picture that's based on actual market research found on Sean K Reynolds' site: Breakdown of RPG players

 

[The.Droog.Of.Elenar]

If you examine the specifics presented for each entry they are geared toward defining what an individual author is attempting to accomplish with and individual story. By inference this is also what a reader "gets" out of a story.

Applied to a Role Playing Game, this becomes "what does a participant 'get' out of the game in question". Every role playing game contains these elements to varying degrees, in what proportion they exist depends on what the group is attempting to accomplish. Which of these elements an individual player values determines the success of the game from his / her stand point.

 

[Jim Hague]

If you examine the specifics presented for each entry they are geared toward defining what an individual author is attempting to accomplish with and individual story. By inference this is also what a reader "gets" out of a story.

Applied to a Role Playing Game, this becomes "what does a participant 'get' out of the game in question". Every role playing game contains these elements to varying degrees, in what proportion they exist depends on what the group is attempting to accomplish. Which of these elements an individual player values determines the success of the game from his / her stand point.

Again, not every roleplaying game has these elements, nor do they seem applicable to every player. I think the focus needs to be narrowed down and applied directly, instead of trying to shoehorn gaming to fit the model, which isn't really applicable.

 

[The.Droog.Of.Elenar]

As a point of order, all RPGs do not fall into the fantasy/sci-fi category. Plus, that 'category' is so broad as to be meaningless. Mr. Card's model is...interesting, but I'm not sure how applicable it really is.

... Perhaps I should have said "by its nature gaming is fantastical in approach, and in this respect the enjoyment derived from it shares common ground with the enjoyment provided by reading fiction. The Genera of fiction with the strongest parallel to most RPG's is that of sci-fi/ fantasy. However ...ect ect... bla bla bla”

Ok so you're right, if you wish to be all encompassing you should ascend to the moniker of "fiction"

The hilt of my argument is that in a role playing game you.....play a role / roles....
Much like the role / roles you assume as a reader in a fictional story.

Fantastic: existing in fancy only

 

[Jim Hague]

... Perhaps I should have said "by its nature gaming is fantastical in approach, and in this respect the enjoyment derived from it shares common ground with the enjoyment provided by reading fiction. The Genera of fiction with the strongest parallel to most RPG's is that of sci-fi/ fantasy. However ...ect ect... bla bla bla”

Ok so you're right, if you wish to be all encompassing you should ascend to the moniker of "fiction"

The hilt of my argument is that in a role playing game you.....play a role / roles....
Much like the role / roles you assume as a reader in a fictional story.

Fantastic: existing in fancy only

Sorry, but fantasy as a genre has some pretty specific connotations...and is still too broad to really be useful. And the reader doesn't assume a role when reading/watching/listening to fiction. They're a 3rd party, separate from the action and unable to affect the course of events, so right there the analogy is flawed.

A better definition of fantasy can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy

 

[The.Droog.Of.Elenar]

The question I think isn’t so much what type of gamer are you, but what elements of gaming do you most appreciate.

Off the top of my head these seem to line up not too far from the mark.



Milieu/ Storyteller - The Milieu is the world--the planet, the society, the weather, the family--all the elements that went into creating that special world.

*
Idea / A Thinker - Idea stories are about the process of finding information.

*
Character / Character Actor - The Character story is about the transformation of a character’s role in the communities that matter most to him or her.

*
Event / Power Gamer - Event stories focus on events.


• A Thinker is a player who most enjoys the game when it delivers Strategic/Combat Focus. This kind of person is likely to enjoy min-maxing a character, spending hours out of game to find every conceivable advantage available in the system to deliver maximum damage from behind maximum protection, even if the min-maxing produces results that are seemingly illogical/impossible. This kind of person wants to solve puzzles and can keep track of long chains of facts and clues.
• A Power Gamer is a player who most enjoys the game when it delivers a Tactical/Combat Focus. This kind of person is likely to enjoy playing a character that has a minimum of personality (often, this kind of person plays a character that is simply an extension of the player). This kind of player enjoys short, intense gaming experiences. The consequences of a failed action are minimized for this player, who will roll up a new character and return to the fray without much thought for the storyline implications of that action.
• A Character Actor is a player who most enjoys the game when it delivers a Tactical/Story Focus. This kind of person is likely to enjoy the act of theater; using voice, posture, props, etc. to express a character's actions and dialog. This player will have a character that makes sub-optimal choices (from an external perspective) to ensure that the character's actions are "correct" from the perspective of the character's motivations, ethics, and knowledge.
• A Storyteller is a player who most enjoys the game when it delivers a Strategic/Story Focus. This kind of person finds enjoyment from the logical progression of the narrative of the scenario. There should be a beginning, a middle and an end. Characters should develop over time in reaction to their experiences. This player will look for a non-rules answer to inconsistencies or anachronisms in the game experience.






And yes I would say that we assume the role of the characters when we read, although in order to have a defensible position I will need to do more research. Thank you for that.

 

[Umbran]

Milieu/ Storyteller - The Milieu is the world--the planet, the society, the weather, the family--all the elements that went into creating that special world.

I don't think these correspond very well. Milieu might fit well enough with the GNS "Simulationist", but the Storyteller is far more concerned with dramatic flow and the narrative than with the details of the weather.

This is a marked difference between the Breakdown and GNS theory. The Breakdown doesn't really have a direct analog to the Simulationist. The data seems to say that the accuracy of simulation isn't a direct concern.

Event / Power Gamer - Event stories focus on events.

Here I see an even bigger mismatch. The Breakdown's "Power Gamer" is interested in intraction with rulesets. Card's "Event" focus is on how the world comes to be in a state of flux. Specifically, the Power Gamer isn't so much interested in the event itself, he's more interested in a tactical situation, how to best resolve it, and maximizing his or her performance in that situation.