Janos Antero
First Post
My apologies, that post did come off rather harsh. I know something irked me in one of the replies, but I don't recall what it was.
Theurge-Smacking Goodness
- Thread starter Technik4
- Start date
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Fair enough, I think I probably came off a bit harshly too. It sounds like, in my post, I'm blaming you for creatively intepreting the rules. I can see how you might assume that I am therefore opposed to your stance, and since you know your own stance, mine must be the opposite 
. I didn't intend for my post to sound like that - the 'you' was intended to be a generic 'you', and the paragraph applying equally to every player of the game - you, me, that guy over there etc.
Sorry for that.
. I didn't intend for my post to sound like that - the 'you' was intended to be a generic 'you', and the paragraph applying equally to every player of the game - you, me, that guy over there etc.Sorry for that.
green slime
First Post
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Except that the MT will not have more resources as measured in gp, hp, lives, or time. And he doesn't fulfill the role of a single classed character in their specialities either. Less bang per buck. And he can't fulfill both roles simultaneously on the battlefield.
Last edited:
green slime
First Post
AuraSeer said:
Sure he could do this if he wanted to... But he'd be shooting himself in the foot if he got targetted by a Greater Dispelling. Or any other number of standard anti-buff tactics... SO he'd still want armour. Or at least I would. Watching players' fly get dispelled so they float gently down into a lava pool causes the great mirth amongst those not playing the hapless...
And really, really. Look at all the buffs people are throwing out assuming the MT has access to all these spells. Enough to buff the party, buff themselves to somekind of super-combat machine...and then some? I look at the amount of spells they'll be casting, and I can't see them doing it all day, everyday.
Cloudgatherer
First Post
I don't see this class as broken so much up till 20th level, but once you go Epic...
Around level 30, there won't be a spellcaster around that could match an Auto-Quickened/Multispelled version of the MT. Take that obscene number of spells and simply *rain them down* on your opponent. Ouch.
Around level 30, there won't be a spellcaster around that could match an Auto-Quickened/Multispelled version of the MT. Take that obscene number of spells and simply *rain them down* on your opponent. Ouch.
Well, for epic levels, I'd suggest this as an obscene pure-spellcaster character (requires a 30th level buikd):
Wizard(5) / Cleric(5) / Theurge(10) / Archmage(5) / Heirophant(5).
Note, that ALL of those classes will be in the 3.5 DMG.
Caster level 20 in each of Wizard and Cleric, and (being cheesy with High Arcana and Heirohpant special ability picks) ... no less than +16 spell power!
So, you go through SR as a 36th level caster, your DCs are all upped by +16, etc. Neither spellpower ability specifies it is restricted to Arcane or Divine magicks, after all.
Add in Epic Spellcasting twice(once as arcane, once as divine) ... plenty of Multispell/Auto-quicken cheesy goodnes, and ... well, it gets downright obscene.
As for epic levels, wasn't hte author quoted as saying Epic Mystic Theurge wouldn't look like what you'd expect?
Probably drops back to +1 caster level total, per Theurge level -- pick cleric or wizard, but only one. Or maybe +3 caster levels per 2 Theurge levels, and a slooooow bonus feat progression (the latter is what I'd do, personally).
...
The Mystic Theurge doesn't frighten me overmuch. It's a neat concept, but it's not ludicrously ovrpowered. What worries me is, this might become a justification for a Prestige class that adds caster levels at TWO per PrC level gained. Balancing THAT, would be extremely difficult (though not outright impossible, IMO).
Wizard(5) / Cleric(5) / Theurge(10) / Archmage(5) / Heirophant(5).
Note, that ALL of those classes will be in the 3.5 DMG.
Caster level 20 in each of Wizard and Cleric, and (being cheesy with High Arcana and Heirohpant special ability picks) ... no less than +16 spell power!
So, you go through SR as a 36th level caster, your DCs are all upped by +16, etc. Neither spellpower ability specifies it is restricted to Arcane or Divine magicks, after all.
Add in Epic Spellcasting twice(once as arcane, once as divine) ... plenty of Multispell/Auto-quicken cheesy goodnes, and ... well, it gets downright obscene.
As for epic levels, wasn't hte author quoted as saying Epic Mystic Theurge wouldn't look like what you'd expect?
Probably drops back to +1 caster level total, per Theurge level -- pick cleric or wizard, but only one. Or maybe +3 caster levels per 2 Theurge levels, and a slooooow bonus feat progression (the latter is what I'd do, personally).
...
The Mystic Theurge doesn't frighten me overmuch. It's a neat concept, but it's not ludicrously ovrpowered. What worries me is, this might become a justification for a Prestige class that adds caster levels at TWO per PrC level gained. Balancing THAT, would be extremely difficult (though not outright impossible, IMO).
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Archmage levels add to both Wizard and Cleric for spellcasting? I thought it only did one...?
Perhaps they changed it. I'd imagine the above config would have a 15th level Cleric (or did the PrC class for clerics get changed)? Oh well. I'm sure someone will come along and explain that to me.
Later.
Perhaps they changed it. I'd imagine the above config would have a 15th level Cleric (or did the PrC class for clerics get changed)? Oh well. I'm sure someone will come along and explain that to me.
Later.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
2Arcturus:
It are more resources and it are different resources.
I made a comparision elsewhere on this board (Sorcerer16 compared to Cleric3/Wizard3/MT10), and it showed that the Mystic Theurge lost one spell level to the Sorcerer, but had severely more spells per day (one of the main powers of the Sorcerer), and did know far more spells than the sorcerer (its greatest weakness). And it got 2 Domain Abilities and a Bonus Feat (okay, it is only Scribe Scroll), while the Sorcerer can only show his Familiar.
If the character decides not to buff himself to highest, but instead he remembers its a group game, he has 10+Domain+School+Bonus Spells from Int or Wis spells per day for 2nd level spells for the group (yes, its not a Double Empowered Bull`s Strength, but on the other hand - a target Dispel Magic will only weaken one character, but not neccessarily cripple him, and an area affected has little effect at all - And the MT could still cast 4 or more of the double empowered - they are effective spell level 6, aren`t they?)
I know an ECL2 (Drow) Wizard/Loremaster (13th to 14th level; I think in total caster levels) and a Cleric1/Spellfirewielder3/Wizard 13/14, and they can both hold their ground in a party that is otherwise composed of a Druid8/Shifter9, a Swirfneblin Rogue 15, a Paladin/Cleric/Fighter/Hospitaler of 18th or 19th level.
(It is obviosly a powergaming group, I admit...)
Now I imagine these multiclasses spellcasters could additionally cast Cleric spells at their caster levels but would give up their ECL/other classes. Ouch. (And I am not only speaking of the headache they will have when managing their spells).
Other things i didn`t consider so far:
The Mystic Theurge can create nearly every magic item from the DMG, since he can nearly cast every spell neccessary.
He doesn`t have to buy Scrolls for it, he does not need a second one. The XP Cost might be nasty, but on the other hand, think of the money it spares. This benefit will especially show up if the group gets plenty of downtime (the example group above had a ingame pause of approx. 2 years thanks to building their fortress), which is not case in every campaign. Anyway, even with few time, he can still craft cheaper items like Scrolls and Wands. (Which give him even more "firepower", and can somewhat get around his disadvantage to a Sorcerer, the lack of spontanous casting)
Mustrum Ridcully
It are more resources and it are different resources.
I made a comparision elsewhere on this board (Sorcerer16 compared to Cleric3/Wizard3/MT10), and it showed that the Mystic Theurge lost one spell level to the Sorcerer, but had severely more spells per day (one of the main powers of the Sorcerer), and did know far more spells than the sorcerer (its greatest weakness). And it got 2 Domain Abilities and a Bonus Feat (okay, it is only Scribe Scroll), while the Sorcerer can only show his Familiar.
If the character decides not to buff himself to highest, but instead he remembers its a group game, he has 10+Domain+School+Bonus Spells from Int or Wis spells per day for 2nd level spells for the group (yes, its not a Double Empowered Bull`s Strength, but on the other hand - a target Dispel Magic will only weaken one character, but not neccessarily cripple him, and an area affected has little effect at all - And the MT could still cast 4 or more of the double empowered - they are effective spell level 6, aren`t they?)
I know an ECL2 (Drow) Wizard/Loremaster (13th to 14th level; I think in total caster levels) and a Cleric1/Spellfirewielder3/Wizard 13/14, and they can both hold their ground in a party that is otherwise composed of a Druid8/Shifter9, a Swirfneblin Rogue 15, a Paladin/Cleric/Fighter/Hospitaler of 18th or 19th level.
(It is obviosly a powergaming group, I admit...)
Now I imagine these multiclasses spellcasters could additionally cast Cleric spells at their caster levels but would give up their ECL/other classes. Ouch. (And I am not only speaking of the headache they will have when managing their spells).
Other things i didn`t consider so far:
The Mystic Theurge can create nearly every magic item from the DMG, since he can nearly cast every spell neccessary.
He doesn`t have to buy Scrolls for it, he does not need a second one. The XP Cost might be nasty, but on the other hand, think of the money it spares. This benefit will especially show up if the group gets plenty of downtime (the example group above had a ingame pause of approx. 2 years thanks to building their fortress), which is not case in every campaign. Anyway, even with few time, he can still craft cheaper items like Scrolls and Wands. (Which give him even more "firepower", and can somewhat get around his disadvantage to a Sorcerer, the lack of spontanous casting)
Mustrum Ridcully
Last edited:
Oni
First Post
Pax said:Caster level 20 in each of Wizard and Cleric, and (being cheesy with High Arcana and Heirohpant special ability picks) ... no less than +16 spell power!
So, you go through SR as a 36th level caster, your DCs are all upped by +16, etc. Neither spellpower ability specifies it is restricted to Arcane or Divine magicks, after all.
Actually the spellpower ability for both the Archmage and the Hierophant very specifically state they only boost arcane and divine respectively.
