Theurge-Smacking Goodness

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Hrm, this isn't core book only, but this is WotC Product only:

Wizard 5/PrC 5 for Wizard/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8

Cast 9th level Arcane/Divine Spells, 20th level caster for wizard, 17th level caster for Ur-Priest

This increases exponentially as you gain more Mystic Theurge levels under epic, at ECL 30 with 18 Mystic Theurge levels, you cast spell as a 28th level wizard, 34th level Ur-Priest. At ECL 40, this increases to 38th level wizard, 49th level Ur-Priest.

 

[Endur]

level 16 character smack down

Here is a level 20 character for 3.5.

Tome & Blood True Necromancer (Sorceror casting levels)

Cleric 1-3 (Death and some other Domain)
Sorceror 4-7
MT levels 8-9
True Necromancer level 10
MT 11-18
True Necromancer level 19-20


Character has:
Sorceror casting level: 17
Cleric casting level: 13
Necromancy spells casting level: 30

Feats: Spell Focus Necromancy, Greater Spell Focus Necromancy, Still Spell (so can wear armor), Quicken Spell (for cleric spells),
Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, other??


Round 1: normal spell: Horrid Wilting 25d8 damage, DC 34 fort save for half damage, quicken spell: some 1st or 2nd level cleric spell (defense or enhancement).
Round 2: normal spell: Horrid Wilting, quicken spell: some 1st or 2nd level cleric spell.
repeat
can do this for six rounds (six 8th level sorceror spells per day)


If Horrid Wilting starts to bore you, the spellcaster can switch to Destruction, Circle of Death, etc.

With caster level 30, none of these spells are going to be dispelled. Likewise, SR will probably not be a problem.

stats: 28 point buy

Chr 18 + 5 level increases +6 cloak of charisma + 5 book = 34
Wis 14 +6 periapt + 5 book = 25
con 14 +6 bracers = 20
int 8 +6 headband = 14
dex 8 +6 gloves = 14
str 8

I'm not going to bother balancing the magic items; the above is what my priorities would be.

If you are using BOVD or other books besides T&B, there are a number of interesting necromancy spells that would be of use.

 

[Caliber]

The Mystic Theurge doesn't seem broken to me. Almost overpowered, but not quite there.

To be honest, it only look bad when A) you bring it into Epic Levels or B) when you start throwing other PrCs into the mix.

But then, most PrCs start looking broken when combined with others.

How many threads are started every day about archers who have all 4 of the archer PrCs and are ridiculously strong (or even just 3 of the PrCs ... it doesn't really matter!)

While the True Necromancer is a creative attempt at showing the MT's brokeness I don't think it really works. Sure your Necromancy spells are hard to dispel, and you go through SR like butter.

Your damage is still capped where it normally is and your save DCs are not unduly raised.

I'd say the best chance of making a broken MT is to combine it with another PrC that is supposed to mix arcane and divine magic.

The only two that come to mind is the Geomancer and the True Necro. Even these combinations, while potent, are not really that bad.

Versatility for oomph. Versatility which, for the most part, will not be fully utilized (ie, you'll rarely use ALL of your spells)

You can be almost as good as a Cleric or a Wizard (if you use those two classes) and in some ways better (if you throw even more PrCs into the mix) but you aren't as good as either in their own field.

I know I've rambled a bit, and the only excuse I can offer is that it is late. But to sum up, I have a feeling this is going to be one of those issues that continually rotates through the boards, without ever reaching a firm descision. I say they're not unbalanced, but its really totally subjective and little anyone else shows me can really make me change my mind.

That pretty much goes for everyone who thinks it IS unbalanced as well, I would assume.

 

[green slime]

Except that 20th sor/clr/MT/TN build only knows two arcane spells of 8th level.

And can cast 2+d 7th level cleric spells. (including stat bonus)

So versatile spellcasting, but no horrid wilting in armour, no wail of the banshee, and those buff spells are unlikely to be necromantic spells, and thus are susceptible to Dispelling.

Compare to a cleric that can cast 4+d 9th level spells, in armour.

Or a straight Sorcerer, he can cast his three known 9th level spells 7 times per day...

 

[Technik4]

Good Effort

There have been some good attempts but so far noone has really stepped up.

As of now we have a full prc listing for 3.5 DMG, so any of those prcs are valid (the only ones that come up rreally are archmage and heirophant, I think).

So is archmage4/cleric3/wizard3/mystic10 unbalanced with respect to vanilla level 20 wizard or vanilla level 20 cleric?

An important thing to point out here is that while the archmage's limitations (giving up slots) are usually negligible (esp for sorc or spec wizard) for a myt it is always kindof a hit. A 7th level slot for a myt is usually his highest or 2nd highest spell level, giving that up for spell power +2 is a good deal, but thats just one less "good" spell he has access to.

As someone else pointed out, even though True Necromancer and Geomancer combos arent technically within the rules, neither are they really really disgusting either. At least, not compared to some rhino armor-paladin-charging smackdown threads I used to read. Or spiked shield bashing even.

So where is the broken-ness really? In our heads? Ive seen a couple OK combos, mostly spectral hand + inflict + wiz touch spells and uber buffing yourself (divine favor, rightous might, etc) but even such builds pale, truly pale to any well built archer or fighter. Granted, you still have spell access (except with TT) but then why are you so worried about getting melee in there (with your "simple" weapon I might add).

Also preaching that the few feats a mystic theurge gets can both shore up weaknesses on both spellcasting fronts, and patch the loss of turning and familiar abilities is ludicrous. As someone else said, you may manage to fix all your weaknesses (to an extent) but while you were doing that the cleric was learning some good combat feats (for when he inevitably buffs himsefl) and the wizard was learning DC buffers and item creation feats.

So that 3 level deficit is now a 5 or 6 level deficit with respect to penetrating SR and DCs.

Basically Ive yet to see any single thing that just screams of broken-ness or uberness or smackdown-ness (except for the Ur-priest, which I assume is from BoVD, which I dont have and dont expect most groups to have access to, esp for their characters, except for the rare evil group).

In closing, I reiterate my challenge. Can someone show me a truly broken build of this class, or is all of this hub-ub about a "powerful" prc (kindof like how weapon focus or spellcasting prodigy are "powerful feats, and endurance and run are "weak" feats; prcs run the same gamut) just so much bluster?

Technik

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think true brokeness in this case is not so easily showed by a simple smackdown, especially with the loss of 3 spells/round (haste revision).
Most smackdowns are based around a single character dealing as much damage as possible in the shortest time possible, but that´s not what this character can do better than any other smackdown caster...

But it becomes interesting if you see the MT within a group that works well together.
He can cast several 2nd level statistic boosters, 1st level Blesses, and 3 to 4th level Greater Magic Weapons.
If you have a sure access to Bull`s Strength, you will never bother buying Gloves of Ogre Power, and probably not even a Belt of Giant Strength +4, because the caster will guarantee this to you. So you can buy more unusual but powerful equipment, that gives the group as whole more (fire)power.

While a normal Cleric/Wizard could still do this, he would not have many higher level spells that can help the group...
A single classed Cleric or Wizard can never do this, but he has access to higher spells and has a better caster level.

The MT now still has some high level spells (even if not as high as a single classes caster), and he has more spells on a given level than a single classed character could get (at same character level).

In a normal group, the procudure would be like this:
1. At morning, Cleric and Wizard buff everybody.
2. While fighting, Cleric wades into melee, WIzard casts powerful spells against enemies.
3. After combat, Cleric heals the rest of the characters. (Usually via Wands of Cure xyz)

the same thing, but we replace the Cleric and the Wizard with a single MT.
1. At morning, MT buffs everybody in the group.
2. During Combat, MT throws powerful spells against your enemies.
3. After combat, MT heals the rest of the characters. (usually via Wands of Cure xyz)

You see, in situation 1 and 3 the MT acts as 2 characters (maybe the durations of his buffs don`t last as long as the 2 characters, but the numbers per day are nearly the same, once the MT has access to it...)
In situation 2, he only acts as a single caster, but that`s normal for a single caster and not a weakness. still unaccounted there, the MT has a far greater variety in his spells, though he will probably rely more on the Arcane ones, because they deal more damage and the MT`s BAB and Hit Dies avoid him using Cleric Melee Tactics
(But this frees his Cleric slots for later healings or "rebuffing" or maybe castind Augury and Diviniations or whatever else you think of...)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[AuraSeer]

Compare to a cleric that can cast 4+d 9th level spells, in armour.

Armor? Who needs armor? This is a character who can cast nearly every protective spell in the book. If he doesn't have the highest AC in the party, he's probably doing something wrong.

 

[Darklone]

I still think that a group that relies on buff spells instead of magic items for attribute buffs will be very very very weak against dispels .... and here the MT is weaker once again.

 

[kenjib]

You see, in situation 1 and 3 the MT acts as 2 characters (maybe the durations of his buffs don`t last as long as the 2 characters, but the numbers per day are nearly the same, once the MT has access to it...)
In situation 2, he only acts as a single caster, but that`s normal for a single caster and not a weakness. still unaccounted there, the MT has a far greater variety in his spells, though he will probably rely more on the Arcane ones, because they deal more damage and the MT`s BAB and Hit Dies avoid him using Cleric Melee Tactics
(But this frees his Cleric slots for later healings or "rebuffing" or maybe castind Augury and Diviniations or whatever else you think of...)

Mustrum Ridcully

That's what threw up a warning light for me on this class -- not that he has excessive power, but that he can potentially absorb the party roles of two people, blurring class distinctions and making other characters obsolete. I think of it more as a design philosophy issue than a strict balance issue. D&D is supposed to be a classed game that supports strong archetypes. This class intentionally blurs those archetypes, and I'm not so sure that this is a good thing for the game at a larger scale.

This relates directly to complaints about the class having no flavor. It does not create a new archetype like all of the good PRCs and classes do. Instead, it detracts from two that already exist. Is D&D a game about number crunching and how many cool powers you can get (the sole focus of this thread) or is it a game about telling a story with compelling characters? How does this class fit in with that question?

To be frank, when I play D&D I really don't care if all of the characters around the table are balanced. I care that they are all interesting characters that feel they have something to contribute to the game. If someone is more useful than me in combat, I don't really care. This is a completely mechanical class -- entirely about the rules and nothing else. I don't think cleric/wizard multi-class combos *should* be all that useful and I've always thought that there was little need for priests of gods of arcana magic. What's the point?

 

[kenjib]

I know I've rambled a bit, and the only excuse I can offer is that it is late. But to sum up, I have a feeling this is going to be one of those issues that continually rotates through the boards, without ever reaching a firm descision. I say they're not unbalanced, but its really totally subjective and little anyone else shows me can really make me change my mind.

That pretty much goes for everyone who thinks it IS unbalanced as well, I would assume.

Isn't 3.5 being released in part to address these exact kinds of issues -- to address those things that receive continual complaints and revisions from the user base? Regardless of whether or not it is mechanically sound from a systems perspective, isn't the perception thereof among the userbase more important? Why introduce something like this that will just create a bigger controversy than the one it addresses?