Theurge-Smacking Goodness
- Thread starter Technik4
- Start date
In one of Dragon's features about the changes in 3.5, they talked about the revised and expanded PrC section of the DMG.
PrCs are supposed to be revised to fit into certain categories that distinguish what exactly they all do. One category is making an otherwise underpowered multiclass choice a good one.
Obviously the examples for this category will the Arcane Trickster and the Mystic Theurge.
I agree that the real problem is the possible overlap with other characters. But I think its no worse than having two Clerics, or two Wizard (hell, in the group I DM there are two Wizards AND two Sorcerors AND two Clerics!)
Sure theres a little overlap, but what ends up happening is one character will specialize in one area while another will work in a different one.
PrCs are supposed to be revised to fit into certain categories that distinguish what exactly they all do. One category is making an otherwise underpowered multiclass choice a good one.
Obviously the examples for this category will the Arcane Trickster and the Mystic Theurge.
I agree that the real problem is the possible overlap with other characters. But I think its no worse than having two Clerics, or two Wizard (hell, in the group I DM there are two Wizards AND two Sorcerors AND two Clerics!)
Sure theres a little overlap, but what ends up happening is one character will specialize in one area while another will work in a different one.
Archmage SOL
First Post
cle3 wiz7 MT10
divine favor+greater magic weapon+tenser+divine might+ shapechange(storm giant, titan,tarrasque etc...)
who needs fighters ?
wall of force+blade barrier (no teleport? die!)
harm + magic missile (a classical one, but only 1 man combo)
shield+bigbys interposing+magic vestments+haste(AC combo)
reverse gravity + blade barrier
contingency + heal
contingency + raise dead
divine favor+greater magic weapon+tenser+divine might+ shapechange(storm giant, titan,tarrasque etc...)
who needs fighters ?
wall of force+blade barrier (no teleport? die!)
harm + magic missile (a classical one, but only 1 man combo)
shield+bigbys interposing+magic vestments+haste(AC combo)
reverse gravity + blade barrier
contingency + heal
contingency + raise dead
Archmage SOL said:
It takes at least 5 rounds to set this up AND one Dispel could take it all down. And since your Caster Level is lower (only 3 lower for the Wizard spells but 7 (7!!!) lower for your Cleric spells) its going to be pretty easy to Dispel them.
I grouped these together since they use the same spell. As the giant Blade Barrier debate we just lived through shows, these two tactics may or may not work.
Not bad. But not too broken either. The first combo takes 4 rounds to set up, and isn't THAT impressive. Your Magic Vestments won't give you THAT much of a boost since your Cleric Caster Level is so low. Your Shield only covers half of the field (assuming Shield wasn't changed to a more d20 Modern version).
The Contingencies don't offer much of a benefit, and I'm not sure if dying is a possible condition. But either way, if your getting hurt enough to need a Heal or a Raise Dead, chances are you're just as well off Teleporting away.
Remember Harm is getting revised in 3.5. It very well might give a save now, or something else. Who knows?
Either way a Mystic Theurge isn't going to be able to get into Touch range with his excessively low HP (d4 HD and all ... )
Sure you could use Spectral Hand but thats just ANOTHER round of setup.
Number47
First Post
I think the surprise inside is that buffing spells are probably not going to last so long, nor GMW. I would be actually surprised to find so many "cast it in the morning, last all day" spells left in 3.5. If that is true, then the MT will be balanced, because even with all his spell slots, if he cannot buff in the morning when everything is safe, then he cannot buff everyone with every spell.
Mustrum:
Your argument about stepping on toes is a double-edged sword. I frequently have played in small groups or groups where people are biased as to what they play (or worse, people that are afraid to play spellcasters as they seem more difficult). In these situations, the mystic theurge gives the group the option of having 1 spellcaster replace the standard 2 (obviously not quite as well), but that flexibility will be welcome in many of my groups.
Also, for larger groups there are usually an abundance of people who like to play spellcasters, and do 2 wizards step on each others' toes? The mystic theurge is like the bard of spellcasting, master of none, jack of all trades.
Gez (and others who think losing all of levels 4+8 is balanced):
Your argument seems to come from the assumption that a 20th level wizard (cleric, sorc, etc) has 9th level spells and a mystic theurge has double 8th level, or 9th and 8th. The comparison would be better if there were 10th level spells, because it only takes a 17th level single-classer to get 9th level spells, and then they keep acquiring more.
My point being, that while a wiz7/clr3/myt10 has access to 9th level spells, that access is far smaller than a 20th level wizard. The difference between casting Time Stop every battle or 1 battle a day is huge, just as the difference between being able to buff yourself with cleric spells or heal your friends in battle is huge. Of course I can use a 9th level slot for wish and wish for a raise dead no?
Lets try the comparison with limiting the mystic theurge to a max of 7th/7th or 8th/6th. My wizard is still casting Time Stop, but now the theurge cannot even match that. He has the versatility to do a lot of other stuff, but most of it I can mimic with wish. Mostly, he has more spells than me, but they are all weaker (substantially, you are in effect changing the 3 level disparity to a 5 level disparity with respect to caster level, spell penetration, and spell effect in general (for instance these theurges will never see the upper limit of a greater magic weapon or a magic vestment spell) which I think makes the combo almost too weak, not unplayable, but not balanced either).
I think I will do my best to stat out some contenders, though it may take some time.
Technik
Your argument about stepping on toes is a double-edged sword. I frequently have played in small groups or groups where people are biased as to what they play (or worse, people that are afraid to play spellcasters as they seem more difficult). In these situations, the mystic theurge gives the group the option of having 1 spellcaster replace the standard 2 (obviously not quite as well), but that flexibility will be welcome in many of my groups.
Also, for larger groups there are usually an abundance of people who like to play spellcasters, and do 2 wizards step on each others' toes? The mystic theurge is like the bard of spellcasting, master of none, jack of all trades.
Gez (and others who think losing all of levels 4+8 is balanced):
Your argument seems to come from the assumption that a 20th level wizard (cleric, sorc, etc) has 9th level spells and a mystic theurge has double 8th level, or 9th and 8th. The comparison would be better if there were 10th level spells, because it only takes a 17th level single-classer to get 9th level spells, and then they keep acquiring more.
My point being, that while a wiz7/clr3/myt10 has access to 9th level spells, that access is far smaller than a 20th level wizard. The difference between casting Time Stop every battle or 1 battle a day is huge, just as the difference between being able to buff yourself with cleric spells or heal your friends in battle is huge. Of course I can use a 9th level slot for wish and wish for a raise dead no?
Lets try the comparison with limiting the mystic theurge to a max of 7th/7th or 8th/6th. My wizard is still casting Time Stop, but now the theurge cannot even match that. He has the versatility to do a lot of other stuff, but most of it I can mimic with wish. Mostly, he has more spells than me, but they are all weaker (substantially, you are in effect changing the 3 level disparity to a 5 level disparity with respect to caster level, spell penetration, and spell effect in general (for instance these theurges will never see the upper limit of a greater magic weapon or a magic vestment spell) which I think makes the combo almost too weak, not unplayable, but not balanced either).
I think I will do my best to stat out some contenders, though it may take some time.
Technik
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
It is not only a question if the MT steps on the toes of some other classes. Here is another example: Imagine a character with the fighting capabilities of, well, a Fighter and the spellcasting abilities of a wizard (a more fair comparision might the capability of a Bard, but with an improved spell list) - do you think that is fair and balancend?
The problem is, if the group can use a single character that fulfills (and that not in a bad way) the role of 2 characters, this means the whole adventure & XP design uses wrong assumptions, because the party as a whole has more resources (nearly one pc more) than expected for its size.
Probably this will not cause the game to break, but it might, in the end, create unexciting adventures because challenges do become less challenging. And this is, well, finally unbalancing and not the results a prestige class should give...
Mustrum Ridcully
The problem is, if the group can use a single character that fulfills (and that not in a bad way) the role of 2 characters, this means the whole adventure & XP design uses wrong assumptions, because the party as a whole has more resources (nearly one pc more) than expected for its size.
Probably this will not cause the game to break, but it might, in the end, create unexciting adventures because challenges do become less challenging. And this is, well, finally unbalancing and not the results a prestige class should give...
Mustrum Ridcully
Arcturus_Rugend
First Post
I think you're using more interchangably with different in respect to resources. A character who can cast more low level spells does not have more resources than a character who can cast higher level spells, just different resources. One character who can do two lesser things can't be counted any more as 2 PC's than a character who can do one thing very well. As long as the number of PC's in the party is the same, the role that each fills isn't as important as whether or not the individual classes are balanced with each other and that the party has a good mix of abilities, regardless of how many PC's they come from. And since I'm reasonably sure that conjecture isn't a good substitute for playtesting, I have no reason to think the Theurge is unbalanced thus far.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Janos Antero said:
Believe it or not Janos, I'm in the camp that agrees with the first half of your argument. Further to that, I believe that anything beyond a literal reading of the text is house-rule territory. Proof of my interpretation (that you don't get damaged if you take the most direct route out of the barrier, and you don't take damage if you stand still within it) is, as you point out, within the text. You don't need supporting evidence when something is a fact - it's a fact, and nothing you can do can make it more of a fact.
