Theurge-Smacking Goodness

From the SRD:

Creatures within the blade barrier when it is invoked take the damage as well. They can negate the damage with a successful Reflex saving throw, provided they can and do physically leave the area of the blades by the shortest possible route. Once the barrier is in place, anything entering or passing through the blades automatically takes damage.
A blade barrier serves as one-half cover (+4 AC) for anyone beyond it.

There is indeed a limit to the amount of time they have to get out of the radius. After the first round everything that stays in the radius is going to be pretty much annihilated with no save. I think that adjudicating this any other way is rules lawyering and ignores the true intent of the rules.

EDIT: I started posting before Scott's last post. In reply to that I would say that such an interpretation seems to abuse the particular wording of the spell at the expense of the obvious intent.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Agree with Kenjib. I could see how you could read things that way, say if you were desperate to save a favorite character :P. But a rational reading simply says that if you stand about in a blade barrier you are going to get diced.
 

smetzger said:

By the spell description if you fail your save but do _not_ enter or pass through the blades(i.e. you don't move) then you don't take any additional damage. I know it doesn't make sense logically but thats what the spell says.

Also, by the description, if you make your save and you leave by the shortest route possible then you take no damage. No mention/restriction on length of time to get out of the area; you just have to leave by the shortest route possible which could take you several rounds if you have a slow movement.

I don't know of any Errata or anything in the FAQ to change the above; therefore any changes you make are House Rules (logical and needed IMO, but nevertheless not the 'official' way to play the spell).


I think that you are making up a house rule to suit your intepretation :)

You are attempting to make a far too legalistic twist on the wording, while ignoring the plain meaning.

Para 1 talks about people entering it taking damage, which is fine.

Para 2 talks about those within the barrier taking damage unless they can make a reflex save, are able to exit by the shortest possible route, and do exit by the shortest possible route. Naturally they don't bother to say "in that same round" because the plain implication of "make a reflex save and are able to get out of the area and do it" is that you don't hang around.

You've been playing in a way which isn't in accordance with the rules as written. I shouldn't let it bother you though.

Cheers
 

Bauglir said:

I suspect I've completely misunderstood what you meant, but hey, it was fun anyway pricing up that ring :)
No, you understood correctly. Compared to a single-class spellcaster, the theurge lacks slots of the highest level, but has about twice as many of every level he can cast. (Half are arcane slots, half are divine, but over the course of a day he can use them all.)
 

Plane Sailing said:

I think that you are making up a house rule to suit your intepretation :)

...

You've been playing in a way which isn't in accordance with the rules as written. I shouldn't let it bother you though.

Actually I do _not_ play it the way that I interpret the rule. I play it the same way you play it, I just believe that the way we are playing it is a House Rule.
 

I also don't believe Hypersmurf has it right either... I've never heard anyone, ever, ever rule that you could stand still in the middle of a blade barrier and be unharmed(!).

If you haven't heard this by now, you've been living in a cave, in the dark at the bottom of the sea. Hyp/myself/a few others have argued this four times at least in the past two months alone.

You've been playing in a way which isn't in accordance with the rules as written. I shouldn't let it bother you though.

Actually, as written, either interpretation is valid. On the other hand, assuming one person is wrong because you don't agree, and saying he's wrong, is silly, and saying yours is the one true ruling without any backup would qualify as a house rule.
 
Last edited:

Janos Antero said:

Actually, as written, either interpretation is valid. On the other hand, assuming one person is wrong because you don't agree, and saying he's wrong, is silly, and saying yours is the one true ruling without any backup would qualify as a house rule.

No, as written there is one and only one interpretation which actually follows the rules, and it requires no "interpretation". It's written in the spell description, plain and simple. Creatures within the barrier when it is invoked get a save to avoid the damage, provided they take the shortest route available to leave it. Hell, the wording of the spell suggests that if the second paragraph, which details that, wasn't present, then creatures which were within the barrier upon creation would NEVER take damage.

Reinterpreting the spell, especially when you have to say "logically", or some other pseudonym for "realistically", is house ruling it. Certainly assuming the extra words "within one round" is house ruling it. Therefore you can't really be surprised when your own alterations to the rules have unintended and downright broken effects. Why don't we all just use the shrink item-plate of steel smackdown while we're at it?

The spell is intended to prevent access to an area, and as a gimme can also be used in a limited fashion as a direct attack spell. That's it. Forcing your opponent to stay within it for more than a round does not cause him to be annihilated, unless he has no way to leave the barrier.
 

If you're willing to waive the core-rules only stipulation, how about a Clr3/Nec3/Theurge10/True Necromancer4 (T&B)? You get a permanent Zone of Desecration around you, 4 extra turning levels, the ability to create undead 1/day, and the ability to cast any Necromancy school or Death domain spell using the sum of all your casting levels. Since Mystic Theurge adds to both cleric and wizard levels, this character casts Necromancy or Death spells at an effective level of 30. Ouch. The Create Undead spell-like ability granted by True Necromancer also functions at an effective level 30.

Now, is this a bad thing? I'm not sure. True Necromancer was always, in my view, a rather poor choice, because the split-caster requirements neutered at least one-half of the character's abilities. A couple levels of wizard cost a primary cleric his highest-level spells, for little real gain, and vice-versa. With Theurge levels, however, the build becomes much more viable, and the Necromancy abilty actually becomes useful, even superior, instead of the mostly-useless add-on to further encourage a narrow spell selection.

Good? Bad? You tell me.
 

No, as written there is one and only one interpretation which actually follows the rules, and it requires no "interpretation".

That sentence makes no sense, and contradicts itself.

This spell creates a spinning disk of blades. These whirl around a central point, creating an immobile, circular barrier. Any creature passing through the blade barrier takes 1d6 points of slashing damage per caster level (maximum 20d6). The plane of rotation of the blades can be horizontal, vertical, or slanted.

Creatures within the blade barrier when it is invoked take the damage as well. They can negate the damage with a successful Reflex saving throw, provided they can and do physically leave the area of the blades by the shortest possible route. Once the barrier is in place, anything entering or passing through the blades automatically takes damage.

A blade barrier serves as one-half cover (+4 AC) for anyone beyond it.


Maybe I'm missing something, but where does it say, implicitly, that you take damage from standing still in successive rounds? For example, an individual who failed the save the first round, and therefore still in the area?

Reinterpreting the spell, especially when you have to say "logically", or some other pseudonym for "realistically", is house ruling it. Certainly assuming the extra words "within one round" is house ruling it. Therefore you can't really be surprised when your own alterations to the rules have unintended and downright broken effects. Why don't we all just use the shrink item-plate of steel smackdown while we're at it?

It wouldn't be an alteration of the rules to look at what they say literally, and act in that manner. You are assuming that damage is taken for standing still within the 2nd round and other rounds. It is not stated.

Nor did I ever state I was suprised "the spell had unintentional consequences" since we've run it this way in 2e as well and are well familiar with it. Nor did I state it was broken, in fact I think the spell serves the purpose of a barrier quiet effectly. Since I'm not familiar with the particular smackdown you mention, I can't really reply to that part.

The spell is intended to prevent access to an area, and as a gimme can also be used in a limited fashion as a direct attack spell. That's it. Forcing your opponent to stay within it for more than a round does not cause him to be annihilated, unless he has no way to leave the barrier.

Actually, the spell isn't intended to prevent access from an area, as it doesn't stop movement that avoids it's plane of rotation. A Wall of Force prevents access, blade barrier is intended to damage those that pass through it, pure and simple. That isn't prevention, that is deterant, a quite different concept.

Forcing your opponent to stay in a blade barrier has zero effect looking literally at the text, after the initial damage for failing the first save. Assuming you take damage for standing in it on successive rounds is (again) not stated in the text. Basically, the blade barrier is created, person in it fails the save, and as long as he stands still in it, by the literal wording of the spell, he takes no further damage.

In fact no where in my post did I mention an opponent could be annihilated, nor the penalties nor tribulations for being unable to leave the barrier, I only spoke of already being in it.

Now, to quote myself again: Actually, as written, either interpretation is valid. On the other hand, assuming one person is wrong because you don't agree, and saying he's wrong, is silly, and saying yours is the one true ruling without any backup would qualify as a house rule.

Again, please provide proof your interpretation is the only accurate valid one by the letter of the spell, and/or possibly by rulings from the Sage. Until then, there is no one definiative answer, nor one person who is right, and saying your's is right and no other could be is not a valid statement.
 
Last edited:

If you're willing to waive the core-rules only stipulation...

In another thread just before the release of the Mystic Theurge, someone brought up the Arcanist, from the... Ultimate Book of Prestige Classes?

Its concept is very similar - +1 caster level to two classes. But the prerequisites and restrictions are more severe. So nobody who feels the Theurge is balanced can complain about the Arcanist being broken, since it gets the same benefits at higher cost.

However, a Clr3/Wiz3/MTh10/Arc4 ends up with a Clr/Wiz caster level of 17/17, and that means 9th level spells in two classes.

Even if you don't allow the Arcanist, the Theurge's inclusion in the DMG as an example of "the right way to design Prestige Classes" pretty much guarantees that there will be more +1/+1 caster PrCs cropping up, and the same thing will occur.

17/13 or 15/15, people can argue is balanced. Can the same be said for 17/17?

I'd say no.

-Hyp.
 

Remove ads

Top