Theurge-Smacking Goodness

[Oni]

I thought we were speaking in terms of the smackdown as you laid them out. I don't know of any touch to ray feat in the core rules, though I assume that would also raise the level, as well as making it a full action to cast. Your talking about a difference of about 7 damage for the tradeoff of not having to waltz into the thick of things to use it. As you get higher level this will of course disappear. Also lets not forget the Spectral Hand can range anywhere in 100ft +10/casterlevel radius of the caster in the course of a round. If the damage isn't doing it for you at this level, a Bestow Curse could do plenty to turn around a combat. As for the wizard, and the vampiric touch, the MT could just cast a fireball and use a cure spell on themselves, they have more spells to do it with.



On another note, I would probably advice against too many metamagic feats for the MT while they will have more spell slots they will be a tad slower getting to higher level ones, where those metamagic feats become more useful. If the current prereqs for the Archmage are carried over, it's not all that difficult to meet them. The feats requirement can be met by 3rd level, and they are fairly useful feats to a caster. The archmages utility even greater for the MT as they don't have to worry nearly as much about the number of spellslots they have as other casters.

 

[kenjib]

I see what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Quixon]

Of course a Clr8 can cast a 4d8+8 inflict using the turns-a-touch-to-a-ray feat or by just getting up close (having the hp and whatnot).

Technik

Actually the Reach spell feat raises level by+2, so the 8th level cleric could at best use a 2nd level spell - Inflict moderate for 2d8+8-not the Inflict Critical, which would be using a 4th level slot to boot-not really effective.

My players laugh at the reach spell feat actually lol. They think the +2 levels is a waste. I think it has uses(better for Sorcerer who doesn't mem spells).

On the topic of the Mystic Theurge, I am on the fence-it LOOKS to be overpowered but I have done a little number crunching and play testing and didn't seem as bad as it looked, but it will take someone playing one in a real campaign for me to see how it really stacks up with other classes.

 

[Cedric]

MT can definitely be an item making madman though. With the exception of race and alignment restrictions, they can just about make it all.

Of course, the clever Cleric or Wizard could too, especially Cleric.

Cedric

 

[JayOmega]

MT can definitely be an item making madman though.

Not really. Many items have a limit on spellcaster level (Arms and Armor at +1/3 levels, for instance). A MyT can't make a +5 sword until 18th level. Wizards can do it at 15th. This is true for all level-limited items; wizards and clerics can make them three levels earlier. The same limit exists on wand/scroll power, bracers of armor, etc.

Not surprisingly, Theurges are the same sort of item-creators (lots of variety, lacking in overall punch) as they are spellcasters.

Also, gathering all the item creation feats will take almost all of the character's available feats (a human W7/C3/M10 has only two extra feats to spend elsewhere.) A pure human wizard has 5 extra feats if he wants all eight PHB item-creation feats.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Round 1 - Solid Fog.

Round 2 - Blade Barrier.

As long as they don't try to leave the area, they only take damage on the first round of Blade Barrier.

They can just stand in place and enjoy 100% Concealment and immunity to ranged attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I'm not saying that the class is over powered, but I did this a while back. Its a one trick/day pony, but I think its kinda neat:

Str: 13 (doesn't really mater since it will be at least 18 after the spells)
Power Crit
Power Attack
Weapon Prof: Scyth
+1 Fire Burst Ice Burst Scyth


Greater Magic Weapon on Scyth

Haste

Imp. Invis

Divine Power

Divine Might

True Strike
Move into possition

Cast transformation
Attack Target w/ Power Attack

Attack Bonus: +62/+37/+32/+27/+22
Damage (non-crit): 2d4+2d6+16 = 28avg (+PA)
Damage (crit): 8d4+2d6+6d10+64 = 122avg (+PAx4)

Power Attack 14 vs AC 20: 311.480 damage
Power Attack 0 vs AC 40: 180.105 damage

I just realized that true strike is completely superfluous against ACs lower than 40 or so sense the characters first attack will always hit (except on a 1 of course) anyway.

Maybe I'll do a non-power crit character later. That way the character is actually do-able. Plus I didn't really have many buff spells or an inherant Str bonuses. Just +4 to Str would actually make a big difference (~36 damage at AC 20).

Check the link in my sig if you want to see how I calculated the damage.

--Cheater Spikey

 

[Saeviomagy]

If I'm not mistaken, blade barrier (like 90+% of all the spells in the book) requires LOS to the target point as well as line-of-effect.

In otherwords you cast solid fog, then have to put the blade barrier down within 5 ft of yourself.

Much better to work it the other way around.

Next up - solid fog's reflex save works as long as the targets take the most direct route out of it. It doesn't say they have to get out in a single round.

Also bear in mind that at the same level as you pull this one, the druid casts creeping doom, the wizard power word, stuns or whips out a forcecage, and the cleric is laying out resurrection, slay living and dictum/blasphemy/?/?. Hell, even the bard is up to 6th level spells.

Spectral hand/inflict wounds is not really an effective tactic when you compare it with magic missile at that level. The only real difference is that you can use it more often than the wizard can.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I'm not mistaken, blade barrier (like 90+% of all the spells in the book) requires LOS to the target point as well as line-of-effect.

No - only spells that have a target entry require Line of Sight.

Spells with an Area or Effect entry only require Line of Effect.

If the drow drops Darkness on you, you can aim a Ray of Enfeeblement or a Lightning Bolt at where you last knew him to be - and in the case of the ray, take a 50% miss chance - but you can't Magic Missile him.

-Hyp.

 

[EricNoah]

Smackdown threads have traditionally been done in the Rules forum. And who am I to buck tradition? Plus, them folks is better at math than we "General RPG" fellas.