D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

ECMO3

Legend
If you want to really read as RAW: reading is not "using it" .. I read newspapers, dogs use newpapers. I read bathroom doors, I only use them if the gender matches.

Reading it to cast a spell is using it. Just like reading a teleprompter is using it.

But expanding to the whole phrase: use a magic item that requires that action. A scroll lets you cast a spell. The scroll does not require anything. It enables you. The spell you cast uses the magic action.

And Fast Hands specifically lets you take the "magic action" as a bonus action.

"reading a magic item that enables you to take a magical action as a bonus action"? THAT is not "as written".

yes it is. Moreso than the post I replied to. Nothing in Fast Hands talks about "activating" a magic item at all and in defending that intepretation you are breaking the magic action into three distinct different application then saying only one of them applies to Fast Hands when Fast Hands itself does not say that.

(this semantic difference is not just crazy... it is represented by the word "activate" which is what the creator was trying to explain).

The word activate is actually in the definition of the magic action. If the creators were trying to explain this they would have done it inside Fast Hands and they didn't.

JC meant what he was saying - you can use FH to activate a magic item that requires the magic action. That is ONE use of FH. I personally think "reading a scroll and casting a spell" is "activating" a magic item, but even if it is not it is still "using" a magic item and the latter is required for fast hands.

But your last statement summarizes how to intemperate the rule: Crawford's statement of intent does not conflict with anything that is RAW.

Crawford did not make a statement of intent. He provided an example of how it is used.

What Crawford said does NOT conflict with using FH to drop Caltrops and what Crawford said does NOT conflict with using FH to "read a scroll and cast a spell" even though he did not state either of these in his example.

That is how he meant it to work.
In most minds: Crawford + RAW >> your intent + iffy RAW + potential for abuse
There is no harm to the game if you fall into the Crawford intent camp. The other camp has spawned a bunch of vidoes and statements about "here is a broken build..", If you are just being sympathetic to underpowered Thieves.. just give the Thief stuff that does work.

I think Crawford intends for FH to be used with scrolls that have a spell with an action casting.
 

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ECMO3

Legend
But to use the item, you don't need any action. You just use it and THEN cast a spell using your action.

You try to retroactively use your ability after the use of the item already happened. So you try to go back in time.

I think you are ignoring the rules here.

I think you are ignoring the wording of Fast Hands.

Crawford has nothing to do with it.
It is basic logic.

Either you use fast hand to use an item that requires a magic action to use.

Exactly like a spell scroll.

Or you use an item with no associated action. That allows you to now use your action to cast a spell.

If such an item exists.


The usage of the item is already done. So you can't retroactively apply your fast hand ability.

No you both read the scroll and cast the spell as part of the same action. That is written in the rules, it is not two separate things

As I explained earlier, if reading is not part of the magic action used in the casting then I could read it one day and cast it weeks later. Further I could have multiple party members read it and all of them cast it days later.

It is pretty clear as written and as intended you use the same action to both read and cast the spell.

If you think it is not then explain why I can't just have the entire party read the scroll weeks ahead of time and then every PC can cast the spell that was written on it whenever they want (as a magic action).
 
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I think you are ignoring the wording of Fast Hands.



Exactly like a spell scroll.



If such an item exists.




No you both read the scroll and cast the spell as part of the same action. That is written in the rules, it is not two separate things

As I explained earlier, if reading is not part of the magic action used in the casting then I could read it one day and cast it weeks later. Further I could have multiple party members read it and all of them cast it days later.

It is pretty clear as written and as intended you use the same action to both read and cast the spell.

If you think it is not then explain why I can't just have the entire party read the scroll weeks ahead of time and then every PC can cast the spell that was written on it whenever they want (as a magic action).
Sorry. I tried everything I could. Take a logic class.
 


Yes.

But you don't use the magic action to use the item.
You use the item to use a magic action to cast the spell.

This is logically not the same. It is actually the logic reversed.

Before I thought it was a problem with transitivity... but I have to correct myself.

It is mixing up the inclusions A => B with B => A.
Ok.

Once again.

Scrolls don't require a magic action.

They allow you to take magic action.

So whoever tries to read scrolls with fast hands (note: not fast mouth), is inverting the order of operations, mixing up requirement and result.

This is something you learn not to do in a logic class, a math class or in conputer science.

I have taken lessons in all of them. I am teaching that...
 
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ECMO3

Legend
They allow you to take magic action.

The rules don't actually say that. What it says is " ....you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time ..."

Assuming a spell with an action casting time, you can take that wording as intended to mean you take the magic action to read the scroll and cast the spell

OR

You can twist that to mean you can read the scroll without an action and then at some time you can take the magic action and cast the spell

You are completely avoiding the central question regarding your interpretation though. If reading the scroll and casting the spell are not part of the same action, why can't I read it days ahead of time and why can't everyone in the party with it on their list read it and then they are all be able to cast the spell using a magic action at some time of their choosing in the future?
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Unless you take "read the scroll" as a prerequisite to be able to take the Magic Action to cast it in the first place? In this case, it becomes an If-Then statement.

IF the scroll is read, THEN you can cast the spell on it.

"Reading the scroll" is a non-action, but it is something that needs to be done- if you cannot read the scroll (due to say, poor lighting), you cannot cast the spell.

OTOH, there is potentially a physical action involved that Fast Hands might help with. Scrolls are normally stored, rolled up in a scroll case. Though I've never enforced this, as it's never explicitly stated in the rules, unfurling a scroll and holding it so it can be read (instead of rolling back up uselessly) is also a potential prerequisite for using a scroll.

I rule that this is one of those "non-actions" like drawing and nocking an arrow from one's quiver in the middle of an Attack action- but it's never stated as such, so the actual sequence of events involved in using a scroll can be:

*Free object interaction to take scroll out of case, unless already in hand.
*Both hands must be free to hold the scroll open.
*Read the scroll.
*Take Magic Action to cast the spell.

The more I think about this, the more I'm annoyed at the Thief ability in question. It's called "Fast Hands", inferring that the Thief is physically able to use an item with greater proficiency using their hands. But this leaves a giant gray area about what can and cannot be done with the ability.

If I want to activate my boots of speed by clicking the heels together- what, am I not allowed to do this because I don't have "Fast Feet"? If the item has a command word, am I unable to use the ability because I don't have "Fast Talk"?

What about items that have to be thrown at their targets? Isn't that actually an Attack action, so Fast Hands wouldn't apply in the first place?

Sure, rulings not rules, and perhaps some feel that having the wiggle room to make rulings is a feature, but I see it as a bug because the intent of what the ability is meant to do is left entirely unclear.
 


Unless you take "read the scroll" as a prerequisite to be able to take the Magic Action to cast it in the first place? In this case, it becomes an If-Then statement.

IF the scroll is read, THEN you can cast the spell on it.

"Reading the scroll" is a non-action, but it is something that needs to be done- if you cannot read the scroll (due to say, poor lighting), you cannot cast the spell.

OTOH, there is potentially a physical action involved that Fast Hands might help with. Scrolls are normally stored, rolled up in a scroll case. Though I've never enforced this, as it's never explicitly stated in the rules, unfurling a scroll and holding it so it can be read (instead of rolling back up uselessly) is also a potential prerequisite for using a scroll.
You are correct. Usually casting a spell from a scroll is two actions. One to retrieve it. One if you cast a one action spell with it.

The thief can do it in a single turn because of fast hands.
 

ECMO3

Legend
I have explained it enough. Even though it is virtually at the same time, it is still cause and effect mixed up.
But why does it have to be at "virtually the same time" if it is not part of the action?

If it is not part of the action where do you get this from?

I can draw a sword and walk around with it in my hand for a minute/hour/day/week and not attack with it, I can take other actions with the sword in my hand. Why can't I read the scroll and not cast the spell right away in a similar fashion?
 

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