Thief seems overpowered to this new/old DM

[Nullzone]

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"What was that? Thieves don't even appear in the top 10 past Heroic? No? No Paragon or Epic Thieves winning any DPR contests and they don't have dailies? Shucks."

Wha?

There's a Thief in the #3 spot in both tiers...

 

[sigfile]

Yeah. The Kulkor Arms Master's level 16 feature is just stupid-good for thieves. It basically allows thieves to double attack every round, getting full MBA benefits with each strike, charge shenanigans on the first hit, and guaranteeing sneak attack damage on the second.

It's like sorcerers taking Daggermaster. I suspect it'll end up like sorcerers taking Daggermaster, too.

 

[twilsemail]

It basically allows thieves to double attack every round, getting full MBA benefits with each strike, charge shenanigans on the first hit, and guaranteeing sneak attack damage on the second.

Why isn't the Thief getting Sneak Attack on the first attack?

 

[Nichwee]

Why isn't the Thief getting Sneak Attack on the first attack?

He might be, but I think the point is that if he isn't able to use it on the first he definately is able to on the second. (And he can't use it on both as they are in the same turn)

 

[MrMyth]

Intent is not always clear.

Not for area attacks and not for Twin Strike. Which is why I try to stick with RAW (even when I forget or don't know the rule ).

Well, I don't think it gets any clearer than the designers saying how it is supposed to work in the FAQ... but it is your game to run, and your call to make in your own game, so fair enough.

Anyway, I think we've wandered a bit from the main point - really optimized builds can do silly things like double throwing enormous axes or the like, but I don't think that has too much impact on your average optimized characters - those who just have good stats and good feats and not much more.

In that area, the thief definitely is nice in how easy it is to build. In terms of overall damage, it is certainly high at low levels, but not in another league compared to all other strikers - Rangers, Rogues and Scouts remain competitive for single target damage, Sorcerers are competitive for multi-target attacks. And the others who are trailing behind those have various builds that can help them catch up, and even when behind in raw damage, have their own strengths and tricks to bring to the table.

 

[Dedekind]

This is an excellent point. The thief and rogue, more than many other classes, directly benefit from the actions of other party members. Defenders and Leaders, for example, enable other classes. Strikers (and back-stabbers in particular) benefit greatly from the essence of combined teamwork.

I wonder if sorcerers benefit to the same degree? Any ranged striker would probably get less out of teamwork... though I guess most ranged strikers (sorcerer, ranger) may provide controller benefits to the rest of the party.

One of the reasons I like 4e mechanics...

 

[Mapache]

I wonder if sorcerers benefit to the same degree? Any ranged striker would probably get less out of teamwork... though I guess most ranged strikers (sorcerer, ranger) may provide controller benefits to the rest of the party.

Anyone with area attacks will benefit from other party members that can reposition enemies (and to lesser extent, allies), but that's already much less available to most characters than just being able to stand in a flank.

 

[DracoSuave]

Just wanted to back you up on this. The power specifically says str for melee and Dex for ranged. It's an example of specific beating general.

Actually, it's a matter of general without any specific. There's no specific rule contradicting any general rule; the heavy thrown property just doesn't have anything to do with any power in the game not named 'Ranged Basic Attack.'

 

[DJINNIMAN]

Thanks, all, for the advice. The rules discussion is a bit (ok, maybe WAY) over my head. It looks like there are strong arguments on both sides of the issue.

I'm happy to report that the party no longer considers the thief overpowered. It is hard to fight when you are dead, after all, as he found out when I aimed monsters his way a bit more often that I normally would. I figured even monsters are smart enough to attack the one that hurt them most first.

Also, a bit of praise for the other players keeping the thief alive or defending him seemed to make quite a bit of difference, as well. I'll be sure to monitor him closely, regardless.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

While we're on the subject of thieves... I just noticed tonight that there is a discrepancy in the Thief ability chart.

The Character Builder and the Compendium both list the Thief encounter power "Cunning Escape" as a 4th level power, while the HotFL lists this at level 5.

It looks like it should be level 5, because they otherwise get nothing at 5th, but maybe I'm looking at something that was silently errata'd and slipped into the Compendium and Builder without any fanfare from an official errata document.

I'm, as usual, inclined to believe the book before the Builder, but with it in the Compendium also, I'm not so sure. I haven't noticed too many errors in there yet, but I've never really looked.