Thief seems overpowered to this new/old DM

[MrMyth]

You're absolutely correct. I did have a brain fart, but not the one you think.

The Hungry Spear weapon does not turn a Gouge into a Ranged Weapon.

It gives it the Heavy Thrown property. No more. No less.

It also gives it a range for that Heavy Thrown property since all Throw weapons have to have a range.

But, this does not turn a Melee Two Handed weapon into a Ranged weapon. It turns a Melee Two Handed weapon into a Melee Two Handed weapon with the Heavy Thrown property.

No, this is not correct. twilsemail produced the relevant quote, but I just wanted to try and common sense this.

You note that Twin Strike couldn't be used with a thrown weapon. But Twin Strike is no different than a ranged basic attack - both are powers requiring ranged weapons. If you can't use thrown weapons with Twin Strike, you would be equally unable to use them with basic attacks.

I don't think there is any suggestion in the rulebooks that thrown weapons cannot actually be thrown.

As you note, the Hungry Spear doesn't make a melee weapon into a ranged weapon, it just makes it a melee weapon with the heavy thrown property. But that's how most thrown weapons are presented - as melee weapons with the heavy thrown or light thrown property. And that property, as noted, allows them to be used as ranged weapons.

A weapon with the Hungry Spear enchantment is just as viable as a throwing weapon as a dagger is for a thief.

Now, I don't think it is all that important to worry about builds designed around specific enchantments in order to work - even if viable, they usually take a few levels to get their combo going.

But the build, even if unlikely, certainly isn't illegal.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I can't believe people are quibbling over 3 points of damage, over the course of an entire fight, and using that to try and point out that a class is unbalanced.

If looking at an actual in game fight, instead of a hypothetical one, you have other things to take into account. Minions. Striker's Bane.

If you, as a striker, must for whatever reason, attack a minion, guess what your DPR is for that round? Yeah, that's right: 1. Or 2 if you're a Ranger (sometimes more). Thief, barring magical equipment, will always be hitting a minion for an effective DPR of 1.

Granted, strikers want to avoid having to do this whenever they can, but sometimes it happens. Sometimes it's the best choice, for the sake of the party. Like minions threatening your pacifist cleric and they go before the controller, or when there is a wall of them between you, and a juicier target, or when they surround you and again, the controller is otherwise busy (it happens).

At level 4, to use your example level, a Ranger (or Sorcerer) will be taking out between 1 and 9 minions in a given round. Thief, only 1. Though the Thief will almost never miss that minion, the TS ranger still has an option to attack a different target if it is adjacent, or in the case of bow rangers, if it is 50 squares away and might even still get to cash in on Quarry damage.

Unlike even a simple PHB Rogue, the Thief has virtually no "control" type ability, and that is an important distinction to make when talking about the Thief's damage output.

 

[KarinsDad]

​

This may have been updated. I'm referencing a pdf and don't have the updates with me.

Yes, you are correct. I will concede the point.

However, there is a different limitation here that many DMs might miss.

If you’re using a projectile weapon to make a ranged attack against multiple targets, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target.

That means that Twin Strike cannot be used with a Gouge to attack multiple targets. If the first attack kills the first target, that's it. The PC does not have two Gouges in hand to attack a second different target.


So, I'm kind of glad that the Gouge Twin Strike Dwarf Ranger will lose some DPR because of dying foes. Not that DMs who do not frequent the boards here will necessarily figure that out.

And, he is limited to attacking one foe.

 

[MrMyth]

If you’re using a projectile weapon to make a ranged attack against multiple targets, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target.

That means that Twin Strike cannot be used with a Gouge to attack multiple targets. If the first attack kills the first target, that's it. The PC does not have two Gouges in hand to attack a second different target.

That only applies to non-magic weapons, though - magic weapons return to your hand and can be used for each attack.

From the FAQ:

13. I am using a magical thrown weapon as part of an area of effect power. If I am attacking multiple enemies within that area, do I need multiple weapons, or will one suffice?

One is enough in this case. Magical thrown weapons return to you after each attack, so you’ll be able to use it against each enemy as part of using your power.

The answer is in reference to a question regarding an Area of Effect power, but given the wording is identical for both that and the one you quoted for ranged attack, it would seem clear that the same thing applies in both cases.

Ranged: "If you’re using a projectile weapon to make a ranged attack against multiple targets, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target."

Area: "If you’re using a projectile weapon to make an area attack, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target."

 

[MrBeens]

Yes, you are correct. I will concede the point.

However, there is a different limitation here that many DMs might miss.



That means that Twin Strike cannot be used with a Gouge to attack multiple targets. If the first attack kills the first target, that's it. The PC does not have two Gouges in hand to attack a second different target.


So, I'm kind of glad that the Gouge Twin Strike Dwarf Ranger will lose some DPR because of dying foes. Not that DMs who do not frequent the boards here will necessarily figure that out.

And, he is limited to attacking one foe.

Magic weapons return back to the user after each attack - a sinlge thrown weapon can be used for all attacks.

 

[KarinsDad]

That only applies to non-magic weapons, though - magic weapons return to your hand and can be used for each attack.

From the FAQ:


The answer is in reference to a question regarding an Area of Effect power, but given the wording is identical for both that and the one you quoted for ranged attack, it would seem clear that the same thing applies in both cases.

Ranged: "If you’re using a projectile weapon to make a ranged attack against multiple targets, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target."

Area: "If you’re using a projectile weapon to make an area attack, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target."

Yeah, I do have a problem with this type of ruling though.

First, it's not in the complied errata. If they are going to change the rules, I prefer that they be in one place.

Second, it's not what the rules state. The rules state:

Any magic light thrown or heavy thrown weapon, from the lowly +1 shuriken to a +6 perfect hunter’s spear, automatically returns to its wielder’s hand after a ranged attack with the weapon is resolved.

Not "after a ranged attack roll is resolved", "after a ranged attack is resolved". But, whether a DM rules it one way or the other (after the attack roll or after the entire attack), it still doesn't change the real rule here.

If you’re using a projectile weapon to make a ranged attack against multiple targets, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target.

This doesn't say the same one can be used twice if magical. It doesn't say that if a magical one returns, it can be used in place of a different one. It says you need one weapon for each target.


I really don't have a problem with them ruling it the way they did in the FAQ (although not doing so would minimize stupid tricks like the Twin Strike Gouge), but putting it in the FAQ and not in an errata is annoying.


One other point on this. An Area attack is not a Ranged attack. Magical thrown weapons do not return back to the user's hand if used with an Area attack. They only do so for Ranged attacks (unless I am once again missing a rule somewhere). The FAQ response that you quoted states that because they return, they can be re-used. Except they don't return for Area Attacks. Whomever wrote that in the FAQ did not check the actual rule. And, you are extrapolating the invalid FAQ ruling to Ranged attacks. That's now quite kosher either.

The FAQ ignores the actual rule and you are extrapolating the FAQ.

Again, I have no problem if this is the intent. But, they need to fix it in the errata.

 

[MrMyth]

Yeah, I do have a problem with this type of ruling though.

First, it's not in the complied errata. If they are going to change the rules, I prefer that they be in one place.

FAQ vs rules updates have always been treated as seperate things. Now, I don't disagree that they should make it easier to find them both - having to go to one place for the updates, and another for the FAQ, is definitely poor management. But complaining about this 'type of ruling'?

I mean, this ruling was made very early in the life of 4E. Specifically to answer that, say, a rogue can use a single magic dagger with Blinding Barrage, rather than needing a pile of daggers in order to use his powers. It has been around for quite a while, and could very well be in the Rules Compendium or the like for all I know. This isn't something that has been secretly changed behind the scenes and hidden away - it has been an assumed aspect of the game pretty much since the start of the edition.

Not "after a ranged attack roll is resolved", "after a ranged attack is resolved". But, whether a DM rules it one way or the other (after the attack roll or after the entire attack), it still doesn't change the real rule here.

Definition of attack, from the Compendium: "An attack roll and its effects, including any damage rolls. The word “attack” is sometimes used as shorthand for “attack power.” Some attack powers include multiple attacks, and some powers, such as magic missile, are designated as attacks yet lack attack rolls (using such a power counts as making an attack if the power has a target)."

This doesn't say the same one can be used twice if magical. It doesn't say that if a magical one returns, it can be used in place of a different one. It says you need one weapon for each target.

Yes, it does. And when people asked if that remained true when using magic weapons, which return after each attack, they said that you could use those on each attack!

I really don't have a problem with them ruling it the way they did in the FAQ (although not doing so would minimize stupid tricks like the Twin Strike Gouge), but putting it in the FAQ and not in an errata is annoying.

Your ruling might minimize stuff like Twin Strike Gouge, but let's be honest - there are plenty of other abuses out there, and that one has nothing to do with the rules for thrown weapons and everything to do with the inherent issues in Twin Strike.

At the same time, what your ruling would do would be to cripple many powers and abilities used by martial characters. The rogue using Blinding Barrage, for example. Pretty much any build designed around throwing weapons that includes multi-target attacks.

There is neither a mechanical nor thematic reason to cripple those builds. The reason for the requirement to have enough ammo/weapons for each target is because they wanted to make it clear you couldn't throw one dagger and have it bounce between ten dudes. With a magic dagger, however, it returns to your hand and you can, apparently, chuck it at everyone you want to hurt. This is clearly the intent of the rule, as supported by the FAQ itself.

One other point on this. An Area attack is not a Ranged attack. Magical thrown weapons do not return back to the user's hand if used with an Area attack. They only do so for Ranged attacks (unless I am once again missing a rule somewhere). The FAQ response that you quoted states that because they return, they can be re-used. Except they don't return for Area Attacks. Whomever wrote that in the FAQ did not check the actual rule.

You may be technically true on this count. Now, it seems pretty clear that the intent of the rule is otherwise, and I don't think I've ever met a DM who would tell a player that magic thrown weapons return for Twin Strike but don't return when used with Blinding Barrage. And if I did, I doubt I'd think highly of such a ruling. Especially with the FAQ indicating that they are intended to return when used with such powers.

Now, I'll readily admit that the rules for area and close weapon attacks are somewhat wonky, and could absolutely been better clarified. (And I haven't checked to see if the Rules Compendium does so).

And, you are extrapolating the invalid FAQ ruling to Ranged attacks. That's not quite kosher either.

Well, yes and no. As I noted, the question is specific to area attacks, but the wording used for both limitations is identical. And the answer itself, meanwhile, does not refer to just area attacks.

Note what it says: "Magical thrown weapons return to you after each attack, so you’ll be able to use it against each enemy as part of using your power." Nothing about that statement is limited to area effects, and given that magical thrown weapons do return after each ranged attack, they clearly allow this ruling to apply to something like Twin Strike.

You may have an argument, by RAW, that would prevent magic thrown weapons from returning with area attack powers (though the intent clearly seems otherwise.) But in terms of actual ranged attacks, such as Twin Strike, it is clear that by the rules, a single magic thrown weapon will definitely do the job.

 

[KarinsDad]

You may have an argument, by RAW, that would prevent magic thrown weapons from returning with area attack powers (though the intent clearly seems otherwise.) But in terms of actual ranged attacks, such as Twin Strike, it is clear that by the rules, a single magic thrown weapon will definitely do the job.

Intent is not always clear.

Not for area attacks and not for Twin Strike. Which is why I try to stick with RAW (even when I forget or don't know the rule ).

 

[Aulirophile]

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"What was that? Thieves don't even appear in the top 10 past Heroic? No? No Paragon or Epic Thieves winning any DPR contests and they don't have dailies? Shucks."

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So this is maybe something to think about:

maybe no +2 bonus at start, but higher bonus later may be a good houserule for those that believe thief over/underperform...