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Thieves World

Crothian

First Post
Welcome to my Thieves World thread. Thieves World is a series of books, short stories actually, written in the 80's. THe following site is very informative on all things Thieves World:

http://www.geocities.com/jillari1/menu.htm

I'm going to be slowly, very slowly, working on converting some old notes and new ideas into a d20 Thieves World game. I'm going to be posting them here and people can comment, critique, and critize.

First, I will be starting the campaign a few weeks or months before the first book starts. So, Sanctuary will be roled by the Pirates and othe none good doers, and the PCs will experience the taking over by the Rankan Prince. Another thing, I doubt this will be as dark as the books. No one in the books has a happy ending, well almost no body. So, while it's important to establish the random acts of violence and hav a few dead bodies show up and have a few living ones missing, that won't be the norm for the players. Sure, they may be attacked and be the cause for the dead bodies, but I really don't want them to be the dead bodies.

So, this is the start. More to follow at some point. I'm be mostly talking about character creation as that's probably the most important thing to begin with. No characters, no game.
 

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Crothian

First Post
So, for my games I like each player to develop a concept first. These character concepts can be like those presented in the quintessential books for those who like them, but it isn't needed. The players in my games start out dirt poor and at the end of a long hook. People are usually in Sanctuary for two reasons.

1) They came here and are unable to leave

2) They are here to escape something

There are people who live in Sanctuary by choice, and like it. So, maybe that's a third option, but not as fun. I start the characters out poor, really poor. They live in Downwind and have a few coppers to their name. They might have an iron pot and a few bowls to fix food, and maybe a dagger or sharpened stick to defend them.

There are only humans for people to choose for a race, but there are a few different types. The most common are the Ilsigi and the Rankan. The Ilsigi are the most common, since they came down here for Sanctuary to get away from the conquering Rankans. There are some Rankans down here hiding, hunting others, or just trying to get by. That is before the Rankans come down and conquer Sanctuary, when that happens there will be more Rankans around and still not as many as Ilsigs.

Rankan
Attributes: No modifications
Medium Sized
30ft base speed
1 extra feat at first level
+4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point every level after 1st
Automatic Language: Rankan (possible Royal Rankan as well)
Favored Class: Any

Ilsigi
Attributes: +2 Con, -2 Str
Medium Sized
30ft Base Speed
1 extra feat at first level
+4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point every level after 1st
Automatic Language: Ilsig
Favored Class: Any

S'Danzo
Then there are the S'Danzo. A race of gypsy like people never staying anywhere to long, always ready to leave at a moments notice. Playing one of these people will give the advantage of having others you can trust, as the S'Danzo basically take care of their own. However, the other S’Danzo might require certain things from you and decide whom you should and should not associate with. They are also very close knit and might not except the S'Danzo's friends.
Attributes: +2 Cha, -2 Str
Medium Sized
30ft Base Speed
Females have Divination abilities (work in progress)
Males have other abilities (work in progress)
Perform is always a class skill
Automatic Language: S'Danzo, one of choice
Favored Class: Bard

Caronne
There are also the Caronne. They are from west side of the content, north of Ilsig. They are known for their art and philosophy. The finest wines and silk are imported from these people. So, there are few who would actually stay in Sanctuary, but it is a fun race to explore.
Attributes: +2 Dex, -2 Wis
Medium Sized
30ft Base Speed
+2 to any two Charisma based Skills (players choice)
+4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point every level after 1st
Languages: Caronne
Favored Class: Any

Raggah
The Raggah are desert dwellers. They tribes that are large extended families. They speak their own language, rarely any other. Very, very few people not of the Raggah know their language. Occasionally, a single or pair will come into the bazaar to buy something. They rarely speak, and only to each other. Mostly, though, when the Raggah need things they raid caravans and the city itself.
Attributes: +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Medium Sized
30ft Base Speed
Proficient in Scimitar and Short Composite Bow
+2 to Ride and Handle Animal skills (Both are always a class skill)
Mounted Combat feat
+4 to resist thirst and heat in a desert
Languages: Raggah (They rarely speak any other language)
Favored Class: Fighter

Northern Barbarian (Name unknown at this time)
The mountain Barbarians are large people, built to fight and live in hostile mountains. They are also not conquered by the Rankan. They come and go from Sanctuary as they please. They also where armor and carry large weapons. One of the few people to be able to do so and not get harassed by the guards, at least not the ones who know what's good for them.
Attributes: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha
30ft Base Speed
+2 intuit Direction, +2 intimidate, +2 wilderness lore
Endurance, Toughness feat
Languages: Barbarian
Favored Class: Barbarian

Nisibisi
The Nisibisi are a mysterious race of humans that live mostly behind the Wizard Wall. The Wizard wall is at the top of the continent and one of the few places the Rankan has yet to conquer. They are a magic using people, and summon demons to through at their enemies.
Attributes: +2 Int, -2 Con
30ft Base Speed
+2 Spellcraft and Concentration checks
+4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point every level after 1st
Language: Nissi
Favored Class: Wizard

Other Races:
Winged Folk of the North
Sumese
Cirdonian
Troll
Firaquan
Tysian
Syrese
Sumarian
Achadian
Napatan
Sherranpip
Mygdonian
Cadite
Azehur
Beysib
Lizerene
Twanders
Mrsevanders
Auryeshi
 
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las

First Post
I like those races can I use them. Plus I have made soem changes to my Prc. If your wondering.

Since im make a multy plain place with lots a materials so all the race I have can help. So can I use these (ill change there names).
 



Crothian

First Post
ColonelHardisson said:
Nice job so far, Crothian. Keep up the good work.

Thanks, it's not as easy as it looks. There is so little solid info on the races in general. I can't even find the correct spelling of the Nissi or the name of the Mountain Barbarians.

Next I'm getting to the classes and how I'm go to alter some and place restrictions on other, while flat out eliminating still others.

Edit: The irony here will be after all this work and my group won't want to play a Thieves World game. :D
 
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las

First Post
As I said before some of those races will work for some world ideas I have. Could I use those ill change names and other things if you think thats better.

Always like what you do.
 

Crothian

First Post
las said:
As I said before some of those races will work for some world ideas I have. Could I use those ill change names and other things if you think thats better.

Always like what you do.

Sorry, I answered it just forgot to type it. Doh!! Of course, fill free to use anything I post here or elsewhere. That is why I post it, so people can use it.
 


Crothian

First Post
Classes

A few of the classes do not fit into the world of Thieves World and many of the people written about in Thieves World do not easily fit into classes. The Paladin should be eliminated as it does fit in with the flavor (plus what would you do when you detect evil and over 50% of the cities population including children and old people turn up evil?). Secondly, clerics are now going to be replaced with Wizards except they have a religious explanation for their power. There is no turning undead, or magical healing. Also, I use a bunch of supplements and will say what I'm using from where.

The Bard: I'm using the standard PHB Bard and not the Monte Cook Bard. The MC Bard could be used as it is, but I prefer to have one of much less magical ability. The bard has a few huge changes to it, the biggest being lack of spells. While the S’Danzo area magical people to some degree I’m using the race and not the class as an explanation of that magic. To compensate that I raise the skill points up to 6 a level and give them bonus feats at level 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (feat list pending). I will also be using the great Bardic options presented in Path of Magic. These options will allow the Bard to get back some of its magical abilities in different ways.

The Druid: While the Druid doesn't seem to fit and no character in TW I've read seemed to be a Druid, I do think it can work. Sanctuary has a large fishing population, so there could be a Druid of the waves. Also, the Raggah could have or know of Druids in the desert. Or one could even be a Druid of the Sewers with thousands of rats as your companions. It would be difficult to play one as most of the standard TW game stays in the city, but I believe it is doable. I think having a Druid that aims towards the King/Queen of the Wilds prestige class from Masters of the Wild would work pretty well.

Fighter: The Fighter is unchanged. Few fighters though will be able to afford the expensive weapons and armor and welding and wearing these things will only bring unwanted attention to the fighter anyway. Most fighters will be interested in fighting employment through the Mercenaries guild.

Monk: How does a monk fit? The Answer is with Quintessential Monk. They having options to make wrestlers and boxers, both of those fighting styles fit very well in Sanctuary. I allow any type, it's just the person would be from a far off land. I also like to feature underground fighting tournaments, so these characters can really shine and make a name for them in this type of arena. Or one can swap out a few of the monk abilities for feats as suggested in Oriental Adventures.

Ranger: For them I'll be using one of the non-casting variants out of Path of the Sword or Player’s Guide to Kalamar. I'm just doing this to get rid of the spellcasting abilities. The Ranger is more of a wilderness type, but there is plenty of that around Sanctuary, just not the forest type. The two weapon fighting style actually fits well within Sanctuary. Tracking through the streets and sewers, though will be next to impossible.

Rogues: Totally unchanged. It is Thieves World after all. I do recommend using Quintessential Rogue and Traps and Treachery for some great rogue options. The Roofrunner prestige class from T&T is perfect for this setting as are many of the new uses for old skills in QR.

Sorcerer: These guys I leave unchanged as well. They do come with a warning though. Show your spellpower to often and you'll get kidnapped and become a servant to one of the powerful people in Sanctuary.

Wizard: Wizards are also unchanged except they don't start as Wizards usually. You have to join the Guild to get the training, so it has to be multi classed into later in life. The Nisibisi are the exception, as can be player character. However, they need to join the guide to have access to research new spells. Being a Wizard takes lots of money, a thing that PCs generally don't have. Priests of the temples work like Wizards as well, except players can't become priests so I really don't have to define them that closely. Also, few Wizards use material components, so the Eschew Materials Met Magic Feat.

I also suggest characters have the skills to do something as a day job. Fisherman, cut purse, beggar, performer, manual laborer, scribe, or servant all work well. I do give out 4 free skill points to be places in a profession, craft, knowledge, or to be made literate. Which reminds me. Everyone starts out illiterate in Sanctuary.

I also will give PCs an extra feat or two of my choosing at first level. I know you might think that sounds powerful, but I'm not handing out feats like power attack and cleave. I'm thinking along the lines of a skill focus, toughness, improved unarmed strike, endurance, run, or other lower tier feat to give them a little edge. In sanctuary you need an edge.

Prestige Classes Unique to Sanctuary
Stepson
Order of the Blue Star
Hawkmask
Nisibisi Witch
Free Agent
Order of Lizerena
Sacred Bander
Bandaran Adept
Harka Bey
Hell Hound
White Mage
Hazard Class Wizard
 
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LrdApoc

"Insert Title here"
your gaming group

Well they probably would play this setting, since at least three of us have read some of the books. The whole low magic, harsh reality is something you pull off well I think.

I know I'm up for it. When is the question, not if.
 

Crothian

First Post
Re: your gaming group

LrdApoc said:
Well they probably would play this setting, since at least three of us have read some of the books. The whole low magic, harsh reality is something you pull off well I think.

I know I'm up for it. When is the question, not if.

Thanks, I really have a passion for Sanctuary and I love the characters and situations in it. I don't know the group well enough to know if it's something they would all like though. I've brought it up a few times, but I don't seem to get any definant answers out of people. Even if we never use this setting, this is still something I've been wanting to do since d20 hit the shelves.
 

LrdApoc

"Insert Title here"
definate answers

who does get definate answers from this group??

I have broached the subject of Star Wars a few times to much the same aplomb.

Don;t let it faze you. You're a part of the group now, wether you like it or not HAHAHAHA! (insert evil laugh here)
 

Crothian

First Post
Re: definate answers

LrdApoc said:
who does get definate answers from this group??

I have broached the subject of Star Wars a few times to much the same aplomb.

Don;t let it faze you. You're a part of the group now, wether you like it or not HAHAHAHA! (insert evil laugh here)

Then demand people answer your question. We can do that Sunday. We'll corner them and make them discuss things. It's not that people don't give definate answers, it's that no one requires them too is the problem. We need a take charge person in the group.
 

Mr Fidgit

First Post
some questions, then...

why take the bard's magic away, especially since it's the S'Danzo's favored class? (they're uber-magical, right?)

why limit the fighter's armor and weapon proficiencies? just because heavy armor isn't common, that doesn't mean they're not trained to use it. and there's the problem with the cost - as in, you've got no money to buy the good stuff anyway. and there's the issue of availability. if noone buys heavy armor, no shop keeper would keep it in stock.

wizards: isn't it possible to have a PC already finished with their apprenticeship? this would allow a (starting PC, level 1) wizard in the party, and that PC would have ties to a guild (or be bound to the guild -- plot hook?)

sorcerer: wouldn't a sorcerer have to get training from someone to use their magic? i know they wake up every day with magical energy, but it doesn't mean they know how to cast a spell - if you know what i mean

monk: (kind of) are all the people in TW associated with gladiator fighting (like Jubal) from a foreign land? or is the whole - i used to be slave, but i fought for my freedom - thing happening?

druid and paladin: they suck. they're broken! :p

an extra feat or two? come on, now. if a person wants to make a PC who's day job is a laborer, then i'd strongly encourage them to take a feat like endurance, but i'd leave it up to the player...(i know this requires putting faith in your players, but somebody's got to do it)

that's enough razzing...er...um...encouragement for now! :D
 

Crothian

First Post
Questions are Good

Mr Fidgit said:
some questions, then...

why take the bard's magic away, especially since it's the S'Danzo's favored class? (they're uber-magical, right?)

They aren't uber magical. The females have divination ability and the males ability is less defined. I'm making that part of their race, so it doesn't matter what class they choose they will have their abilities.


why limit the fighter's armor and weapon proficiencies? just because heavy armor isn't common, that doesn't mean they're not trained to use it. and there's the problem with the cost - as in, you've got no money to buy the good stuff anyway. and there's the issue of availability. if noone buys heavy armor, no shop keeper would keep it in stock.

Just to show the importance of training. There's no reason this couldn't be written into the charater's background, either.


wizards: isn't it possible to have a PC already finished with their apprenticeship? this would allow a (starting PC, level 1) wizard in the party, and that PC would have ties to a guild (or be bound to the guild -- plot hook?)

I guess it can be done in the character's background. Having ties to the guilds is a great thing, and that's why I encourage it. I've yet to have someone want to play a Wizard, so it isn't something I've had to deal with.


sorcerer: wouldn't a sorcerer have to get training from someone to use their magic? i know they wake up every day with magical energy, but it doesn't mean they know how to cast a spell - if you know what i mean

I always saw the Sorcerer as the self discoverer in magic. Having a character get trained in its use would not be out of line though.


monk: (kind of) are all the people in TW associated with gladiator fighting (like Jubal) from a foreign land? or is the whole - i used to be slave, but i fought for my freedom - thing happening?

The Gladiatorial slaves are only seen in the large cities like Ranke. Here in Sanctuary, it's people fighting for money. You get paid a little to fight, more if you win. And the betting is very populiar. Gladitorial slaves can be from anywhere. Some are gaurds accused of crimes and become slaves to as punsihment, other are debters sold to slavery to pay off the debt, and still others are like Jubal having been captured by slavers. Any slave can win their freedom, but it is very difficult. Gladitorial slaves ussually fight to the death, so Jubal was undefeated basically.


an extra feat or two? come on, now. if a person wants to make a PC who's day job is a laborer, then i'd strongly encourage them to take a feat like endurance, but i'd leave it up to the player...(i know this requires putting faith in your players, but somebody's got to do it)

Actually, the extra feats are done for a balancing issue. The characters are going to be really poor and face many hazards even a normally equiped first level group might have troubles with.
 

Mr Fidgit

First Post
so, to sum up...

S'Danzo are 'gifted',

training is of utmost importance, but

a background can explain away anything :)D),

there are no gladiators, and there is no fight club,

PCs get extra feats to compensate for the fact that any average street beggar in Sanctuary is a CR 3 encounter,

and there is no fight club.

got it!
 

Crothian

First Post
All except back can explain anything away, not anything just a lot. It really depends on what the other characters are going to do and if it will add orr detract from the game.

Beggers are not CR 3, well not alone but a bunch are. However you can run into a Hawkmask as first level and they'll be about CR 7.

No slave Gladiators, well none that are still slaves. THey can be escaped or won their freedom though. There are special holidays when a slave gladiator is brought down to fight one of the local champions though.

Bonus feats is just something I've thought about doing. That, like everything else, is not cemented in place yet.

There is no fight club
 

Crothian

First Post
Building trust in Sanctuary.

As some people realize, there are not honest people in Sanctuary. While that is not 100% true, it's darn close. A stranger who comes into town needs to be wary of everyone, as looking for people to take advantage of is a highly refined art in Sanctuary.

So, how do the players hope to survive when if they really shouldn't be able to trust each other? The answer is in the character backgrounds. First, I stress the guilds and having employment. This does three things for the character: 1) a source of income 2) contacts who are trustworthy 3) plot hooks. Now not all the contacts will be trustworthy, but a character should get an idea on who to trust and who not to.

First off when creating character backgrounds I have the players sit down and work it out together. It's okay to have characters save the life of others or to offer a helping hand. While these are rare occurances in Sanctuary, they do happen and they can be used to build to the bounds of friendship between player characters. Even though cheating and backstabing are par for the course in Sanctuary, I really do try to keep it to minimium among the players. THey are of course encouraged to cheat and backstab NPCs as they see fit.

There are two groups in Sanctuary that if you are part of them you can trust almost everyone and they will be there to help you. The groups are the S'Danzo and the Fishermen. Both of these groups do not accept people not of their kind, but they do look out for their own.

The Guilds to a lesser extent can be trustworthy as long as you are in good standing with them. Guilds are there to oraganize and make money. A smart character can do the same by taking advantage of the guild. I use a mercanaries guild, a bardic guild (all none S'Danzo, the S'Danzo don't needa guild), and the Wizard guild. Now, the Hawkmasks can be seen as the thieves guild, and their are churches that are similiar to guilds. However, both are unique in the way the do business and both are much more difficult to jion. The mercanaries guild costs a few silver a week, and the character has to show some aptitude for fighting. THe bardic guild is a little more expensive, and the person has to perform well in an audition. The wizard guild is expensive, and is very slevet in who they take. However, all three guilds will get people jobs as long as you are in good standing with the guild and don't embarres them.
 

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