Things I dislike about Dragon Mag.

[Skade]

So would everyone who does not like the fiction in Dragon be happy if stats were supplied for the characters, and feats, skills, or classes that might be inferred from the story? Would that be enough of a context?

I doubt Dragon would do it, but who knows. You could have the story as usual, and in sidebars, or as an addendum, give information that with a little fleshing could be used as an adventure.

I personally would like to see that.

 

[megamania]

Darksun. Give me Darksun 3e articles. It's all I ask

 

[Terraism]

So would everyone who does not like the fiction in Dragon be happy if stats were supplied for the characters, and feats, skills, or classes that might be inferred from the story? Would that be enough of a context?

I doubt Dragon would do it, but who knows. You could have the story as usual, and in sidebars, or as an addendum, give information that with a little fleshing could be used as an adventure.

I personally would like to see that.

Much like the old Ecology articles? Those would be nice to see again - the best fiction Dragon's ever had, in my opinion.

 

[Kryndal Levik]

Personally, I skip the fiction almost every time. The George R.R. Martin article is probably the second or third time I've read the fiction in Dragon in ten years.

As far as the "fluff" is concerned- I used to enjoy some of these types of articles. I have to agree, though- a "what to yell" article is just not worthwhile as a full-length feature. A one-page listing, maybe, but gosh... I have gotten the feeling of late that the actual "usable" content in Dragon is becoming more and more scarce- it's been rather disappointing. I used to read them cover to cover, and find quite a bit to use in my campaigns. Now, I end up reading a handful of articles and rarely find much that is useful. As difficult as it is to do so, I'm actually not renewing my subscription for this reason (for the first time in probably 6-7 years)...

 

[WayneLigon]

Much like the old Ecology articles? Those would be nice to see again - the best fiction Dragon's ever had, in my opinion.

Some of those were very good, especially for establishing atmosphere. I guess I really like the creepy ones the best.

The will-o-the-wisp was one, nicely conveying the utter hopelessness at facing such a creature when you don't have any magic weapons.

The harpy one was just a complete surprise. That poor ranger!

The ghoul. Excellent. Very Lovecraftian.

The sheet phantom. Excellent. Motives, atmosphere, a nice surprise all in one.

The Feyr one, though, has to top everything for the sheer inventiveness.

 

[DonAdam]

I, too, wish that the fiction were gone.

Alas, I think we're stuck with it.

Fluff articles, on the other hand, are the whole reason I buy Dragon. I hate to say it but Dragon has contributed to the Prestige Class arms race in which they must constantly be more powerful.

Furthermore, Dragon tends to put out "specialist" prestige classes, which I really dislike. These are the ones that get really good at something you can already do in the core rules.

 

[KDLadage]

Originally posted by KDLadage
Then give the context of how this can be used in a gaming environment, and I no longer have a problem with the fiction being there.

Originally posted by jdavis
I read a story and I get a idea for a adventure...... gee that wasn't hard at all. D&D adventures are normally as much about weaving a story as they are about mechanics and dice rolling. They don't have to have to be about the direct mechanics and rules of the game to give ideas. A good campaign should have a good storyline it is following.

My aren't you the pithy one.

I understand and I agree -- I have gotten adventure ideas from fantasy fiction. I have also gotten adventure ideas from newspaper articles, movies, candy wrappers, old black and white photos, television shows, songs and a plethora of other things I think do not belong in DRAGON. But, as you would suggest, you would not mind since they can be the source of adventure inspiration.

But each and every thing in that magazine should have something directly to do with gaming. And for fiction, just being fantasy is not direct. It is indirect at best, it is completely off topic at worst.

That is your opinion and that is fine, but that is not everybody's opinion. If nobody thought the fiction needed to be there then it wouldn't be there so it has to have support from the readers.

1. I never claimed this was anything other than my opinion.
2. I have never claimed that nobody wants it in there (I realize that some do).
3. This is a forum for dispensing opinion -- I am simply offering mine.
4. I respect your views, although I respectfully disagree with them.

Suppose you have a subscription to WOMEN'S DAY magazine (one that my wife reads a lot of) and suddenly 8-10 pages per issue were devoted to masculine issues.

Suppose that 8-10 pages of Woman's Day is devoted to a story that women find interesting and then you would have what is actually happening. Many women's magazines have sections with stories (whether they are true stories or fiction stories) in them. Many magazines have stories in them, this isn't that rare of a thing.

5. Just because something occurs, does not make it the 'right' or 'correct' choice.
6. My wife likes to get things like 'Daily Chicken Soup for the SOul' in her inbox, she still cannot stand fiction in WOMEN'S DAY.
7. To each their own, I suppose.

I think the problem once again is that people are putting their opinions out as facts, if you hate the fiction section then that is fine but there are lots of people who like it your opinion is just that and it holds no more water than anyone elses opinion. You are not going to like every section of every magazine, but because you hate it doesn't mean that it isn't useful and informative to other people.

8. Never claimed my opinion was a fact.
9. Never claimed it might not be useful.
10. Simply stated that without context it is a waste of space that could be used more efficiently.
11. In a discussion like this, I absolutely refuse to include a "imho", "ymmv", etc with each and every line just so that you are reminded that I am not claiming to be some all being that speaks for all. Sorry.
12. < foghorn leghorn >That was a, I say that was a joke, son! < / foghorn leghorn >

 

[Moxie]

Re: You know what I really hate about Dragon?

Absolutely nothing.

Okay, they could tone down the cover blurbs a bit, but that's all!

I too have to say that I don't like the cover text blurbs. I really hate them. Maybe there is some other way to convey what articles are inside the covers such as a removable cover for newsstand issues. I seem to remember reading that they are in a plastic envelope and that readers can't open them to find out what's inside. Maybe the index page could be on a loose or removable page on the back.

I look back on issues like #37 and see breathtaking artwork. That to me is a far more compelling reason to open a magazine than cheesy, gimicky textbites like a tabloid uses. Great art on the cover is spoiled by the text like this. This is just my opinion, but I hold it passionately.

 

[jdavis]

9. Never claimed it might not be useful.
10. Simply stated that without context it is a waste of space that could be used more efficiently.

????????????
may be useful or waste of space? Yes I am being a ass but this is exactly what I am picking at. You go on and on claiming that it doesn't apply and isn't useful then you say that you never claimed it might not be useful. Isn't the whole point of your arguement that the fiction is not useful for gaming and thus doesn't belong in the magazine?

The big difference between what it is and what you are talking about is that it is Fantasy Fiction, not just random stories, D&D is a fantasy setting and they include a small section of fantasy fiction, if they included the heartwarming stories from Woman's Day magazine or the dating stories from Cosmoplitan, or even the life stories of famous auto racers from Automobile magazine then I would agree that it doesn't belong, but this is fantasy fiction in a fantasy magazine. It isn't alwasy good fiction and I agree that a stat blurb at the end would be welcome but it does stay within the fantasy genre. It is within context of the magazines focus, whether it could be better or not or whether it could go away or not is different but it does fit in with the magazine, it is Fantasy fiction in a fantasy magazine.

 

[KDLadage]

????????????
may be useful or waste of space?

These are not mutually exclusive as you appear to think that they are (or that I am not explaining clearly enough).

I have indicated that I have found adventure ideas on candy wrappers. This means that the candy wrapper was a useful item in my roleplaying. However, an article discussing the history of candy wrappers in DRAGON would be (imho, ymmv, yadda yadda yadda) a complete waste of space -- unless it also included a context for how this could be used in a game.

Does that make it more clear?

Yes I am being a ass but this is exactly what I am picking at. You go on and on claiming that it doesn't apply and isn't useful then you say that you never claimed it might not be useful. Isn't the whole point of your arguement that the fiction is not useful for gaming and thus doesn't belong in the magazine?

If this what you feel is my whole point, then either I need to polish up on my ability to communicate (entirely possible) or one of us is not paying attention...

No, my point is not that fiction is not useful. And to be clear, I am not saying that it is never useful, nor am I saying is usually not useful. I am saying that without a context to place it directly into gaming, it is not on topic. It is (at best) marginally useful (as a mode of inspiration -- which, as I have pointed out could be the case with anything one would want to write about), and at worst it is a complete waste of space.

The big difference between what it is and what you are talking about is that it is Fantasy Fiction, not just random stories, D&D is a fantasy setting and they include a small section of fantasy fiction, if they included the heartwarming stories from Woman's Day magazine or the dating stories from Cosmoplitan, or even the life stories of famous auto racers from Automobile magazine then I would agree that it doesn't belong, but this is fantasy fiction in a fantasy magazine.

If it is so on topic, why cannot it include a direct tie in with the game? I would not think that DRAGON should be a place for movie reviews. Even fantasy movie reviews. But it ran a review of the D&D movie. This was off topic. At least it was up to the point it included stats for the characters, illustrating the 3rd Edition rules. Remember that? That, suddenly, moved this from marginally related to the focus of the magazine, and made it directly relevant to the magazine.

Give me a fantasy story with no context, I will always refer to it ias (at best again) marginal or (at worst) a complete waste of space. Either way, it will be (imho, ymmv, yadda yadda yadda) a waste of space, just perhaps not a complete waste of space.

Give me a story from WOMAN'S DAY, a dating story from COSMO or even a story about AUTO RACERS -- and include a way foir this to be relevant to my gaming experience -- and I will say that it is (at best) excellent or (at worst) poorly written and not my thing. But at least, once it relates to roleplaying in some way, it is not off topic.

It isn't alwasy good fiction and I agree that a stat blurb at the end would be welcome but it does stay within the fantasy genre. It is within context of the magazines focus, whether it could be better or not or whether it could go away or not is different but it does fit in with the magazine, it is Fantasy fiction in a fantasy magazine.

We have two different opinions here. This is a good thing. I would not want to live in the world where everything I thought happened or was true.

But I think you are getting me wrong here -- so I want to clear this up. I am not always just talking about a stat blurb. IMagine this: give me a 5 page story in DRAGON. It is a fantasy story. It is fair to above average writing. Now, follow this up with notes on how such a sequence of events might happen in my D&D game (such as how to maintain the seperation of knowledge that the players might need to have for the mystery to pan out well, or how the players can role-play the "gather information roll" that leads to the events described in the story or what-have-you.

I am not stating that all fiction needs rules top be on-topic in DRAGON magazine -- I am stating that all fiction requires a gaming context (what-ever that might be) to be on topic in DRAGON magazine.

Does all of that make sense?

PS: No, you are not being an ass. At least not im my opinion. We are just having a friendly discussion and/or debate last I checked.