Things I don't like about the 4E DMG - part 1 of 1000

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The motivation is not that the player failed to meet the conditions of the ritual. Heck, if the PC was 3rd level and didn't even have the Observe Creature ritual, wouldn't that fit here? No, it doesn't because that's not the point of the paragraph. The point is "the player is doing something that you didn't anticipate, so make it look like a rules adjucation, even though it's nothing of the kind. In spite of much of the other advice in the book. And I'm not going to explain the reason I'm contradicting myself here."

No, that's how you read it. Obviously some of us read it differently. But either way, I would agree with that too. If you as a DM feel you must "cheat", it's better to hide the "cheating" behind the rules, instead of saying: No, you can not do that, it would ruin the game. At least if you are an inexperienced DM. But then again, I am sure your mileage varies. However, there is no right or wrong way to DM. Well there is, but it's certainly not as black and white as you seem to think.
 

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The advice in the DMG that I'm referring to has NOTHING to do with the rules of the game. Scrying spells, and this basic issue in general, have existed in all editions. There is no edition war to be found here..
Exactly. This issue is one of tension between narrative/story role-playing and adventure role-playing. This tension has been present in D&D since the beginning (particularly in the form of divination magic). D&D isn't structured for narrative/story role-playing, so advice like that quoted creates some conflict with the spirit of the rest of the game and its players.
 

If folks are generally willing to concede that the passage in question is as I say it is (more or less), then I suspect you'll say "yea, but the rest of the book is great". In which case I can continue with part 2... :-) (I had no intention of continuing along with part 2 when I started this.)

Not that it much matters but I am willing to "concede" that the section that you quote in the OP is (as I think I put it earlier) "pretty crappy advice for a DM". However I am a benefit of the doubt sort of guy. I don't see a whole lot else in the DMG that would suggest that this author (or others) have principles at odds with their habits. I'm willing to allow that this is a bit of advice that is somewhat poorly worded or may simply trend past the edge of what I find advisable for a GM. It seems to me that most of the advice for DMs in the DMG is pretty good and I say that as somebody who is totally excellent at it.

That is the context that I think other people are talking about.
 

Well, this has been a very interesting read, but I am still left hanging, waiting for an answer to a question that was posed on the first post and has me tingling with anticipation: why shouldn't you follow a 20th-level character up a ladder?

Johnathan
 

Not that it much matters but I am willing to "concede" that the section that you quote in the OP is (as I think I put it earlier) "pretty crappy advice for a DM".

Was it crappy advice when Gary adviced the same thing (if we for a second assume the OP was right) in the 1e DMG?
 

No, that's how you read it. Obviously some of us read it differently. But either way, I would agree with that too.

I'm not surprised. In fact my informal tally of people who agree with me and those who disagree seems to indicate that everyone who disagrees with me also seems to disagree with what I claim that the paragraph is saying, but then strangely also *would* agree with it *were* it saying what I claimed.

If you as a DM feel you must "cheat", it's better to hide the "cheating" behind the rules, instead of saying: No, you can not do that, it would ruin the game. At least if you are an inexperienced DM.

Why is it better? Because you can't be honest about how you are conducting the game? I didn't think honesty and integrity were the domain of just one of the DMing styles. The players are people - and in my case my peers. They are not stupid, and they know when I'm lying most of the time (which is something IME chronic liars are not aware of.) They have no business being lured into a game under the pretenses established in the PHB and then lied to. This is not a matter of DMing style, this is a matter of honesty.

If somehow the reverse were true - I would have the same objections. If DnD were some kind of narrativist game, and the rules said "Observe Creature works when it is determined by the DM to be appropriate to the Plot", then I would have the same problem if the DM were secretly undermining his players efforts in this area as well. (An example is hard to give in this case.)

But then again, I am sure your mileage varies. However, there is no right or wrong way to DM. Well there is, but it's certainly not as black and white as you seem to think.

Well, I think this situation is clearer than you're suggesting, obviously. This isn't about "DMing" exactly or entirely. This is about how you conduct the game as a person, and how you deal with the other people at the table.

I admit that I can't judge your motives as a DM in every case. You make all kinds of rulings with ulterior motives in order to preserve the plot, and I can't say anything about the specifics. So you're not going to get caught sometimes. The funny thing about the DMG example though, is that it describes enough of the thought process to make it clear that the DMs explanation is a dishonest rationalization.

Why would you (as a DM) want to hide what you're doing as described in this case? It contradicts pretty much everything that's established as the point of the game in the PHB. Obviously I understand that narrativist DMs, and pretty much every DM, has some interests, hopes, expectations, etc. that they want to see fulfilled in the outcomes of the game. But at what point do you throw out the basic structures of the game, expectations of the players, and even your honesty in order to accomplish this?
 

Was it crappy advice when Gary adviced the same thing (if we for a second assume the OP was right) in the 1e DMG?

I'll answer first unequivocally and say yes, it was crappy advice then too. I've met and gamed with Gary and I think he was a hell of a great guy. He laid the foundations for us all and I'm forever greatful for that. Still crappy advice in that instance.

However, I will temper this by saying that I think that gaming sensibilities have changed a LOT since then. The years have taught us many lessons that were far less well established in terms of what works well (most of the time) and what doesn't (most of the time). Gary was having to write that book without the benefit of those lessons.

I'll also say that, based on my very limited experience of gaming with him (the once), that Gary was unrepentantly "old school" in terms of style. He might give that same advice today if he were still around. But I suspect that he'd still run a pretty great game most of the time anyway, just as I'd suspect of James Wyatt.
 

It's dishonest to the players as people to suggest that the game is going to be conducted in a certain way, and then turn around and lie to them about what you're doing.
It may be dishonest, but it also may be good DMing practice.

DMs have to metagame. There isn't another option. If you think there is, you're lying to yourself. I know this because D&D world to isn't a real place. Someone has to make it up. You can't logically derive it from some set of first principles. You can't figure it out from observation of reality. It is a creation of pure fancy.

If you do actually believe that DMs shouldn't metagame, then you should either 1. never DM ever, or 2. get very good at self deception so that you can convince yourself that your decisions aren't metagaming even though most of them are.
 

It may be dishonest, but it also may be good DMing practice.

DMs have to metagame. There isn't another option. If you think there is, you're lying to yourself. I know this because D&D world to isn't a real place. Someone has to make it up. You can't logically derive it from some set of first principles. You can't figure it out from observation of reality. It is a creation of pure fancy.

If you do actually believe that DMs shouldn't metagame, then you should either 1. never DM ever, or 2. get very good at self deception so that you can convince yourself that your decisions aren't metagaming even though most of them are.

But metagaming != lying...
 


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