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Things I don't like about the 4E DMG - part 1 of 1000

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gizmo33

First Post
They did establish the conditions. In general, "Say yes." If it is going to ruin your adventure, "nerf ritual."

Hmm. This is a reading comprehension issue. AFAICT Mallus is talking about a general principle. But obviously if you had understood much of what I wrote in the last couple posts you would know that I agree with you that they HAD established the conditions and thus I was able to talk about contradictions with at least some logical basis.

Yes they have, haven't they. ;)

If you're directing the "they" thing at me, once again I think your position is just simply illogical. Your emotions may be telling you that I'm *wrong* but you've apparently forgotten what it was that I've been trying to say.

Since I'm arguing that the passage in the OP is inconsistent with other areas of the DMG, then I really have no need to "pick and choose" anything. If sentence A and sentence B are inconsistent, then the meanings of sentences C, D, E, etc. are irrelevant to that issue of consistency. A and B don't stop being inconsistent just because a poster wants to tell me about how *he* DMs. Or that A, C, and D are consistent and so B should just be ignored as "bad writing" or whatever.

A logical case could be made that I misunderstood A or B. For example, though I never really found much of an argument to support this IMO, some posters argued that the fact that A and B contradiced each other was evidence that B, somehow was the "context" for A and therefore magically over-rode it. I would be as if I said "a tomato is a fruit" and later on said "a tomato is a vegetable" and then claimed that my later statement somehow provided important context for the former so you really should just ignore the former. I never thought that argument correctly used the definition of "context". That's what I meant by picking and choosing.
 

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Imaro

Legend
It wasn't an example of inconsistent advice. What you quoted was an example of advice that might appear inconsistent at first glance (ie, advice similar to stuff in the DMG that you found objectionably but I didn't).


The same old stuff to you and me, not to starting DM's.


People who already know how to DM, I'll wager.


My experience is that even experienced DM's could benefit from a few clarifying remarks concerning playstyles --and the expectations accompanying them-- different from their own.


Luckily the 4e DMG has them.


So each edition should become increasingly beginner-unfriendly?


That's actually a good idea.


So the DMG should leave out everything you don't already know? I'm all for niche products, but isn't that a little much...


I'll say this, as I'm not sure which side of the spectrum I'm on as far as what should or shouldn't be in the DMG... but where do you draw the line between what is essentially DMG material and what should essentially be Starter Set or Dungeonmastering 4e For Dummies material? I mean right now there's tons of overlap in these books and really I think that may lead to players (old and new) who pick up say... The Starter Set and the core books to feel as if they're not really getting their money's worth. I know the lack of actual material, spacing out of material and general feeling of skimpiness and incompleteness is a major issue many have with 4e... but when you look at the DMG, Starter Set and Dungeon Mastering 4e/ D&D 4e for Dummies there really is just too much that's reprinted and repeated.

EDIT: I really think WotC exacerbates this problem by continually releasing "Starter Sets" after the core rulebooks...then wonmdering why they sell badly when it's little more than a paired down reprint of the cores.
 

Mallus

Legend
...that I agree with you that they HAD established the conditions and thus I was able to talk about contradictions with at least some logical basis.
Yup. That's our disagreement in a nutshell. I think the DMG does establish the necessary conditions --though I prefer the term 'context'-- and you do not. Right?

Also, you should never let logic interfere with reading comprehension.
 

Mallus

Legend
I'll say this, as I'm not sure which side of the spectrum I'm on as far as what should or shouldn't be in the DMG... but where do you draw the line between what is essentially DMG material and what should essentially be Starter Set or Dungeonmastering 4e For Dummies material?
Good question. I don't think there should be a Starter Set. In general I prefer not to be sold a piece of advertising. Any material suitable for a 'starter set' should be free on the Internet. And the DMG itself should be Dungeonmastering for Dummies. It should be as comprehensive as possible while still functioning as a tutorial for people completely new to roleplaying.

I mean right now there's tons of overlap in these books and really I think that may lead to players (old and new) who pick up say... The Starter Set and the core books to feel as if they're not really getting their money's worth.
I think that's a problem too.
 

gizmo33

First Post
Well, it's a darn good thing I wasn't replying to you, then, wasn't it?

I was putting in my 2 cents on others' points about on-the-fly changes, timing of improvisation, and general DMing advice. And, if nobody found it interesting, they could just ignore it. That's the way threads work.

The way threads work AFAIK is that if you're responding to a particular statement you can quote it. You posted a general statement on the thread and started off with "why is this thread still going on?" "Why is this thread still going on?" is virtually nonsense if it's just directed at one person.

The ideas you expresssed had already been debated by others and your statements didn't really reference any of that, which I thought was unfair and ironic considering your seeming complaints about the length of the thread. The posts that you supposedly were trying to select out, do, in fact, tie back eventually to the OP so I think it's strange to argue that somehow your statements were obviously attributable to only certain posts since, you would hope, they'd all be OT.

Anyway, in light of the fact that you think I'm being a jerk and that we're talking about a roleplaying game here, for the most part, I don't think you really need me to say anything else.
 



Rel

Liquid Awesome
I'm convinced at this point that the thread has served its purpose and is going nowhere constructive. Sounds like time to shut her down.
 

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