D&D 4E Things I Learned From 4e

[I'm A Banana]

So, I have been playing 4e more or less since it's launch. Here are a few things I've picked up, that I hope the team keeps in mind going into 5e. Please share your own, too!

• I don't care about the Encounter, I care about the Adventure. 3e started the trend of making the encounter the central part of the game, and 4e solidified it. The thing is, I don't care about the individual encounter. I don't care about one fight with goblins, or one talk with the guards. What I care about is the context it is embedded in, the multi-day struggle to survive the dungeon, or to journey to the far-away land. It's not killing monsters that makes me feel heroic - it is the context for killing them that matters to me.
• I want to do more than fight things. Specifically, there are three things that I'd like to do, in addition to combat: Exploration, Discovery, and Interaction. 4e's minis combat system is peerless, but that's not how I want to solve all my problems. I want robust subsystems for plumbing dungeons (including resource management!), unearthing secrets (including knowledge rolls!), and dealing with NPC's (including skill rolls!), systems that every player at my table might contribute to in some way. I don't want you to worry about balancing classes so tightly on combat roles, but to rather see them in the context of adventure roles.
• I want combat to move faster, and be more cinematic. 4e combat lasts way too long and is way too concerned with the minutae of opportunity attacks, squares, cover, and BLAH BLAH BLAH for my fun. I don't want to have to bust out the minis. I don't want to have to bust out the grid. I want to be able to put thoughts in my players' heads without requiring little plastic toys for the deed. I want more danger, more swinginess, more chaos.
• I don't want 500 powers for each class. I think I'd like power sources to be where powers are -- all martial powers come from the same source, and all martial characters draw on the same power pool, even if the Thief and the Fighter take it in different directions.
• I don't want any role to be "necessary". The baseline for balance should be set low enough that any character can clear it. No one should have to play the leader or the defender or the controller (or the Face or the Sage or the Explorer), if they don't want to.
• I want treasure that is more fun. I do not want to fill out a shopping list. I want to roll on a table, get things that are potentially a little unbalancing (but a lot of fun!), and always be entertained with the quirks.
• I want monsters to be more fun. I do not want to plunk down a stat block on a minis grid and wait for it to die. I want to populate my world with interesting and fascinating creatures waiting to be discovered around the next bend in the river.

I'm interested in what other 4e players have learned from their experience, and I'm sure WotC is, too!

 

[Alzrius]

No bullet point for "I don't want a wrought-iron fence made of tigers between the crunch and the fluff"?

 

[dmccoy1693]

[*] I want monsters to be more fun. I do not want to plunk down a stat block on a minis grid and wait for it to die. I want to populate my world with interesting and fascinating creatures waiting to be discovered around the next bend in the river.

Would you by chance be interested in a 3PP monster book?

 

[TerraDave]

We've lost XP now? Maybe trying to bring the server load down?


KM, I completely agree.


Feels a little odd.

 

[buzz]

I don't have much to say here except: +1.

 

[Dannager]

On Monsters:

I think 4e got monsters right, mechanically. They're pretty much spot-on, especially from MM3 onwards. They are individually interesting, easy to run, and straightforward to reskin. The stuff outside the statblock is much less important to me.

Solos, elites, standards, and minions all need to be in there. This was a brilliant idea that graduated thought on how monsters worked in D&D from creatures in a gameplay vacuum to creatures who had a place in the context of the encounter system.

On Activities Outside Combat:

I don't know what to do about this. I want cool tactical combat, and I dislike shallow subsystems. I'm worried that anything except a broad framework (like the skill challenge system) would simply take up too much space or be too tough to balance in terms of providing a unique experience for each type of activity. Ideally, yes, exploration and intrigue and stealth and everything else would have its own rules structure to support it. I just don't think it's feasible.

On Combat:

I'm happy with 4e's combat, and to a lesser extent with 3e's combat. I think it could move faster, but it would come at a price - you'd lose some of the complexity and depth that make it really compelling from a mechanical point of view. I think that's important.

On Powers:

They should stay, and I like the idea of grouping them by power source rather than class. Maybe include some keywords in powers that make them more effective for certain classes?

On Modularity:

This is the part I'm most concerned about. Tacking things on optionally will probably be a balance nightmare, and balance is important if anything like the tactical considerations of 3e or 4e are left intact. I will withhold judgment, and I hope they figure out a way to make it work without creating an enormous workload.

On Options:

Give me lots. I love options. Options forever. I want my character to feel thematically unique, and there's nothing more satisfying than being able to pick out rules options that embody exactly the thematic notes you're trying to hit. Provide straightforward ways of restricting options for those DMs or players who hate lots of options, but understand that options are popular and give you an easy way to grow the game.

On Digital Tools:

Have the equivalent of a Compendium and Character Builder available at launch, at a minimum. You can't go back.

On Feats:

Give us lots of them, and separate them into two categories - combat feats and non-combat feats. When characters level up, alternate which feat category they get to choose from so that a character has half combat feats and half non-combat feats. Double the number of feats awarded if necessary. I love feats. Feats for everyone!

 

[the Jester]

• I don't care about the Encounter, I care about the Adventure. 3e started the trend of making the encounter the central part of the game, and 4e solidified it. The thing is, I don't care about the individual encounter. I don't care about one fight with goblins, or one talk with the guards. What I care about is the context it is embedded in, the multi-day struggle to survive the dungeon, or to journey to the far-away land. It's not killing monsters that makes me feel heroic - it is the context for killing them that matters to me.

• 
  
  God, yes. Splitting an adventure into two booklets, one of which is pretty much exclusively what to kill, is terrible. All the info on a given location should be unified. Let's hope they abandon the Delve format- it's poopy.
  
  

  [*] I want to do more than fight things.

  
  I'm with ya here too. I like the skill challenge system but it's a warty, blemished sort of thing. 4e's emphasis is definitely on tactical combat.
  
  

  [*] I want combat to move faster, and be more cinematic.

  
  Yes- I should be able to run 10 or more combats in a 5-hour session.
  
  

  [*] I don't want 500 powers for each class. I think I'd like power sources to be where powers are -- all martial powers come from the same source, and all martial characters draw on the same power pool, even if the Thief and the Fighter take it in different directions.

  
  I'll go a step further- I hate option overload. It needs to be sliced down in one way or another.
  
  

  [*] I want treasure that is more fun. I do not want to fill out a shopping list. I want to roll on a table, get things that are potentially a little unbalancing (but a lot of fun!), and always be entertained with the quirks.

  
  Yes. I'll note that there are probably less than a dozen magic items in 4e that are strictly for flavor and don't give you any real power.
  
  

  No bullet point for "I don't want a wrought-iron fence made of tigers between the crunch and the fluff"?

  
  YES! You can have one from me!
  
  Seriously, 4e's book on the Feywild should have had a ton of fey creatures in it, too. Just to name one example.

 

[KidSnide]

• I don't care about the Encounter, I care about the Adventure
• I want to do more than fight things.
• I want combat to move faster, and be more cinematic.
• I don't want 500 powers for each class.
• I want treasure that is more fun.
• I want monsters to be more fun.

All true. +1.

I also want to say that making treasure and monsters more fun will probably involve having fewer of them. When each enemy has its own mechanics, it's harder to have interesting mechanics without generating a headache for the GM. Similarly, if a PC is expected to have 6-10 magic items, it's impossible for each one to be interesting.

I think we should go back to adventures where you often fight a single monster or a group of similar monsters. Yes, those monsters should be interesting, but synergies from 4 different types of monsters should be an exceptional encounter, not a standard one.

And, as many people have said -- fewer magic items would be nice. As a GM, I hate having to select a new magic item for every other encounter.

-KS

 

[Dragonblade]

On Monsters:

I think 4e got monsters right, mechanically. They're pretty much spot-on, especially from MM3 onwards. They are individually interesting, easy to run, and straightforward to reskin. The stuff outside the statblock is much less important to me.

Solos, elites, standards, and minions all need to be in there. This was a brilliant idea that graduated thought on how monsters worked in D&D from creatures in a gameplay vacuum to creatures who had a place in the context of the encounter system.

On Activities Outside Combat:

I don't know what to do about this. I want cool tactical combat, and I dislike shallow subsystems. I'm worried that anything except a broad framework (like the skill challenge system) would simply take up too much space or be too tough to balance in terms of providing a unique experience for each type of activity. Ideally, yes, exploration and intrigue and stealth and everything else would have its own rules structure to support it. I just don't think it's feasible.

On Combat:

I'm happy with 4e's combat, and to a lesser extent with 3e's combat. I think it could move faster, but it would come at a price - you'd lose some of the complexity and depth that make it really compelling from a mechanical point of view. I think that's important.

On Powers:

They should stay, and I like the idea of grouping them by power source rather than class. Maybe include some keywords in powers that make them more effective for certain classes?

On Modularity:

This is the part I'm most concerned about. Tacking things on optionally will probably be a balance nightmare, and balance is important if anything like the tactical considerations of 3e or 4e are left intact. I will withhold judgment, and I hope they figure out a way to make it work without creating an enormous workload.

On Options:

Give me lots. I love options. Options forever. I want my character to feel thematically unique, and there's nothing more satisfying than being able to pick out rules options that embody exactly the thematic notes you're trying to hit. Provide straightforward ways of restricting options for those DMs or players who hate lots of options, but understand that options are popular and give you an easy way to grow the game.

On Digital Tools:

Have the equivalent of a Compendium and Character Builder available at launch, at a minimum. You can't go back.

I can't XP you for some reason, THIS! I agree with all of this!

4e monsters are perfect as is.

The 4e combat system is nearly perfect as is. I love the Standard-Move-Minor action economy.

I love that there is a certain amount of utility and healing self-sufficiency built into all classes in 4e. I don't want to go back to needing a cleric, or the swiss army knife caster that makes all other classes obsolete.

I like options as well. If the base game is stripped down thats ok, but provide all the options necessary to effectively recreate 4e with this newfangled Ultimate Edition in the main rulebook and I'm sold.

 

[keterys]

XP is off briefly for load reasons - hopefully folks will remember to xp afterwards