things i like/dislike about PHB2 - a sort of review

[Plane Sailing]

I find myself wondering whether Avenger could be used to create quite a nice 'monk' type character. Wisdom based attacks, starting in cloth armour, I could imagine it working for a certain kind of magical monk. I can even see the Oath of Enmity being two-fisted attacks on a target (the make two attack rolls and take the one you like thing).

Perhaps losing the military weapons proficiency and gaining unarmed proficiency equivalent to a dagger (+3, 1d4, off-hand).

Wouldn't be super effective, but could be fun

 

[evilbob]

I wanted to see PHB2, not "races and classes 2"

Brilliant: right there with you.

As for the monk, I'm secretly hoping they throw us all for a loop and make the monk a defender instead of a striker... Especially since the striker field is already so crowded. I would think lots of cool powers that allow you to trip (prone) and throw (push) enemies that are around you would fit the monk flavor nicely and give them a more interesting role. Throw in high defenses with just cloth armor and you've got half the monk right there. Now you just need a ki power source and you're almost home... (The only downside being: what other class is going to use ki as a power source?)

Anyway, here's hoping that the DMG2 is a lot more DMG than the PHB2 was PHB.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I get really annoyed whenever we get "Race X makes terrible Class Y" posts. Because it's just not true, and that way of thinking is crap.

*thumbs up*

DS

 

[gribble]

Stack with themselves? You clearly have misunderstood something about the rules.
...
you are clearly not playing 4e.

Woah chief, you might want to check your rulebook before you go throwing accusations around - cleary you're the one not playing 4e!

There’s one important rule for bonuses: Don’t
add together bonuses of the same type to the same roll or
score. If you have two bonuses of the same type that apply
to the same roll or score, use the higher bonus.
...
Some bonuses are untyped (“a +2 bonus”). Most of these
are situational and add together with other bonus you have,
including other untyped bonuses.
...
Unlike bonuses, penalties don’t have types.
Penalties add together, unless they’re from the same power.

 

[Obryn]

I find myself wondering whether Avenger could be used to create quite a nice 'monk' type character. Wisdom based attacks, starting in cloth armour, I could imagine it working for a certain kind of magical monk. I can even see the Oath of Enmity being two-fisted attacks on a target (the make two attack rolls and take the one you like thing).

Perhaps losing the military weapons proficiency and gaining unarmed proficiency equivalent to a dagger (+3, 1d4, off-hand).

Wouldn't be super effective, but could be fun

I don't know why you'd need to limit them to daggerlike weapons.

As I posted in another thread, just make their fists equivalent to any martial weapon they choose to use - including two-handed. And, they need to "focus" with a minor action before fighting effectively (to replace drawing a weapon).

Then, just allow their hands to receive enchantments appropriate to their "weapon" type, transferred from other magic items.

I know, I know "But fists can't do that much!" Really, it's just a reskin. This monk/avenger is no more powerful than a regular one, especially since disarming is unknown so far. It's an added flavor with no actual added power.

-O

 

[CelticMutt]

As I mentioned, I had been expecting a much fuller and full-featured 'background' section - I was certainly expecting it to exceed what was in dragon/dungeon.

I would have liked to have seen a Combat chapter which included some additional combat options (naval combat? aerial combat? mass combat?). If the PHB is the book which contains combat information, I expected each PHB to have something about combat, especially since there are loads of bases which haven't been touched yet.

I would have liked to see a Skills chapter with additional things that could be done with skills.

Magic item section could have been much better (at least the size of PHB1, although slanted towards more miscellaneous magic items and less additional armours).

Does that help? I was basically expecting PHB2 to follow the pattern of PHB1 with additional options and expansions to each of its areas.

Cheers

I'm still holding onto (vain?) hope that eventually there will be a 4e Birthright setting done, which would be a natural place to add in mass combat/war rules, and probably naval combat since 2 of the major geographical regions were naval super-powers.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I liked PHB 2 in general; I expected a Races/classes/feats/paragon path book and that's exactly what it was, given that new rules will probably be presented in DMGs. This review is done with only a once over of everything but Races/classes, which I studied more in depth.

Races:

Thumbs up to Gnomes, Half-Orcs, and Shifters. I love the new Gnome and Half Orc flavor wise, and shifters have an interesting backstory as the outcast woodsmen. Meh to Deva. I preferred their old backstory even if I like their new name. Thumbs down to Goliaths, as I wish they would have focused on Hobgoblins or something like that instead of those guys. Flavor wise, Goliaths are fine, just a bias that I don't believe they were needed given Warforged eventual release this summer.

Classes:

Obviously, this is just a preliminary take on them, given I haven't seen them in play yet.

Avenger: Very cool concept. Not sure it does enough damage, but play will point this out. Thumbs up.

Barbarian: Feels like this one does a lot of damage, but is off set by how often you're presenting yourself as the obvious target and how easy you are to hit. Besides, DPR tests on the ChaOp boards still show Rogues/Rangers winning. Thumbs up.

Bard: Very well done, probably the best version of a bard yet. Thumbs up.

Druid: Interesting concept. Like that it's a controller as oppossed to leader. Probably my favorite controller so far. Thumbs up.

Invoker: I just don't grok this concept at all. It's really the only class I have no interest ever in playing. Thumbs down.

Shaman: Took the healy druids schtick from 3.X and added it to the Shaman class. Fine by me. Spirit pets are neat ideas, and I like their class healing ability. Thumbs up.

Sorceror: Wild Magic looks amazingly fun to play. In general I believe it will out DPR Warlocks, but I believe Warlocks, especially if you add in the Dragon article, have better kickers. I don't think they are stritcly better than 'locks. Thumbs up.

Warder: Need more time to digest it. I think I'd still prefer the regular fighter as a defender. Still deciding on thumbs up or down.

Feats:

I still believe Expertise should have been handled in Errata. It will be houseruled in my game to everyone, then banned. I'll have to take a harder look at the rest of the feats before deciding further.

Backgrounds:

Seems like another way of giving characters a free bonus. I could take or leave it mechanically, but I guess as a DM anything that can inspire players to make a better background I'll favor.

Equipment:

Some of it was needed, due to the new implements. Nothing really earthshattering.

Errata:

Nice to have them print it up for us.

 

[Jack99]

Jack99: You clearly didn't like my take I see. That's fair enough, but please don't tell me I'm not playing 4e. I'd respond to your points but I don't think I'd communicate it clearly enough since I obviously didn't get it right the first time around.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. Sorry if I came off as harsh, I wrote the post in a hurry before having to run out the door. I still disagree with the points mentioned though

Woah chief, you might want to check your rulebook before you go throwing accusations around - cleary you're the one not playing 4e!

I know you were trying to be funny, but I wasn't referring to the general rules, but instead to this:

Weapon Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon group. You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with any weapon power you use with a weapon from that group. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon group.

I do not really see any room for stacking with itself left in that. The special line makes that quite clear.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't know why you'd need to limit them to daggerlike weapons.

As I posted in another thread, just make their fists equivalent to any martial weapon they choose to use - including two-handed. And, they need to "focus" with a minor action before fighting effectively (to replace drawing a weapon).

Then, just allow their hands to receive enchantments appropriate to their "weapon" type, transferred from other magic items.

I know, I know "But fists can't do that much!" Really, it's just a reskin. This monk/avenger is no more powerful than a regular one, especially since disarming is unknown so far. It's an added flavor with no actual added power.

-O

heh. I just can't shake my natural inclination to "realism/simulationism". It gives me a hard time with 4e sometimes

My thought experiment was to keep fists == daggers, but they could still use other simple weapons easily (e.g. staff). Daggers are OK for rogues (albeit as instruments for more easily landing their sneak attack damage), I think it could be interesting here.

Cheers

 

[Runestar]

Is it just me, or do the epic defense-boosting feats also seem like patches in the guise of feats?

It is all too tempting to pump the 2 key stats for your class and just focus improving them every chance you get, while ignoring your other 4 stats. As a result, most classes will have 2 excellent defenses (by virtue of having 2 good stats) and one crappy defense which most monsters will have no problem overcoming. Those feats seem like an excellent means of shoring up your weak defense.

For example, a half-orc brutal scoundrel who maxed out str and dex will have a crap will defense. So he will probably take iron will at paragon, then retrain it to either robust defenses or indomitable will, while taking epic will at the same time. That +6 to will defense sure helps shore up the +8/+9 disparity between your strong and your crap defense (assuming 10 in all mental stats, and 26-28 for str and dex at lv30). And if he takes epic fortitude/reflexes as well, his already strong defenses will be all the more unassailable.

Feature or bug here?