D&D 5E Things that the non-magical Fighter could do

[Bluenose]

Over in the Damage on a Miss ghetto @Tovec said something I thought was interesting.

As I see it there are plenty of things that can be done with non-magical means in the non-magical fighter and I would like to see them explore that, over a mechanic that can never fail to miss.

And I replied:

Let's start making a list of those things, perhaps.

Bleeding wounds. I slash you with an axe, you should probably be bleeding afterwards - taking cotninuing damage until treated (or it stops naturally?)

Damage to limbs. Damage/Cripple an arm, a leg or a wing - affecting "weapon" use or movement abilities.

Blinding, or at least damage around the eye. Someone affected by this should have reduced AC, and should have their ability with missile weapons affected, perhaps melee ones too. Do it twice, and they're more seriously affected.

Daze/Stun. Why should people with sharp things have all the fun. A mace blow to the head should do something - though I wouldn't want it to stop all actions, perhaps just force the target to spend a round on defence.

@Manbearcat suggested a thread in the main part of the forums wouldn't be a bad idea, and I'm rather inclined to agree. So here it it. Feel free to add things, suggest alternatives, object - this is brainstorming, not settled rules. PEACH, in other words.

 

[Sadras]

[MENTION=49017]Bluenose[/MENTION], most if not all of your ideas can be incorporated into the Fighter's manoeuvres with superiority die. There are some others that could be stolen from the Beastiary playtest pdf: Commander Trait (from the Hobgoblin) and Disciplined (from the Human Warrior)...etc

 

[Manbearcat]

This is a fantasy game we're supposed to be playing with fantasy heroes who eclipse our real world model. As such, I would like to see fantasy Fighters capable of the kind of feats of athleticism, mental/physical fortitude, and imposition of will on others (due to their sheer presence or their legend) that we see in the real world. But this shouldn't be epic stuff. It should be lower tier stuff. Fantasy Fighters should be eclipsing their real world peers at higher levels.

At lower/mid-tier play, they should be capable of:

- Imposing their will on their peers, like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, such that they wilt or naturally subordinate.

- Free-running and climbing like the freakish athletes and Olympic gymnasts of the world (check youtube for the guy that climbs like a monkey!).

- Literally shrugging off wounds that would mentally or physically cripple lesser folks, as the elite soldiers of this world do.

- Having the patience, skill, and strategic acumen to lay in the same position, unnoticed, in the bush for 3 straight days, observing the enemy, and reporting back with a perfect conception of what they saw and extrapolation of what it means (or what is to come).

- The absurd proprioception, spatial awareness and coordination to pull off the kind of amazing feats in a tangled, melee milieu that hockey players, soccer players, and fighter pilots pull off. Lionel Messi should not be an aberration. He should be the standard for mid-level D&D Fighters.

- Inspiring their teammates and subordinates to be better than they can be by themselves, such that the whole becomes much greater. Like Messi or Jordan, Captain Winters of "Easy" Company, Erwin Rommel, Bernard Montgomery, George Patton, and Douglas MacArthur should be the normal deal for fantasy Fighters.

 

[Capricia]

If people want more realistic mechanics that get away from Damage on a Miss, then we might as well deal with the whole "I've just been slashed by an incredibly strong fellow with a sword but I'm fine" phenomenon that comes from classes with lots of hp. Just like how I don't want to play a dnd where it's possible to play a fighter who never misses, I don't want to play a dnd where I can play a wizard who never gets hit with a sword until they fall to 0 hp. Here's what I think would help:

Lethal Damage: Creatures you hit with a discernable anatomy become Wounded. Wounded creatures take a -5 penalty to all checks, saves, and attacks, must succeed on a DC 20 constitution save to perform complicated actions like spellcasting, and take 1d6 damage at the end of each turn. This extra damage can be stopped with a DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check. The Wounded condition can be removed with the Regeneration spell or one week of rest. If a Wounded creature would be Wounded again, it dies.

There. Perfect. No more of wizards who can be crit with a sword to their neck and just shrug it off like nothing happened.

More seriously, I'll probably be giving Fighter's the following:

Incredible Athlete: At level 2, a Fighter can spend 12 seconds (2 rounds) focusing to add his fighter level to any strength check he immediately makes afterward involving a short burst of power, such as breaking out of chains or bending bars. If the fighter does the same before a jump, triple the distance.

Something for the Fighter to do outside of his class features. Action Surge is a purely combat power, so it's okay to give the Fighter something that really doesn't have much combat utility. At level 20, the fighter is going to be able to be rolling +25 or so for their strength checks...but I think that's okay.

Combat Expertise: At level 3, the first time a fighter hit an enemy, double the bonus from strength or dexterity to damage.

When I was running the numbers on the Fighter vs the Cleric, I noticed that Fighters in combat are going to be significantly worse than war priest clerics when it comes to hitting things in the face until level 5, which is just weird. So give Fighter's a small boost, one that doesn't multiply with Action Surge or their multiple attacks.

 

[Bluenose]

This is a fantasy game we're supposed to be playing with fantasy heroes who eclipse our real world model. As such, I would like to see fantasy Fighters capable of the kind of feats of athleticism, mental/physical fortitude, and imposition of will on others (due to their sheer presence or their legend) that we see in the real world. But this shouldn't be epic stuff. It should be lower tier stuff. Fantasy Fighters should be eclipsing their real world peers at higher levels.

At lower/mid-tier play, they should be capable of:

- Imposing their will on their peers, like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, such that they wilt or naturally subordinate.

- Free-running and climbing like the freakish athletes and Olympic gymnasts of the world (check youtube for the guy that climbs like a monkey!).

- Literally shrugging off wounds that would mentally or physically cripple lesser folks, as the elite soldiers of this world do.

- Having the patience, skill, and strategic acumen to lay in the same position, unnoticed, in the bush for 3 straight days, observing the enemy, and reporting back with a perfect conception of what they saw and extrapolation of what it means (or what is to come).

- The absurd proprioception, spatial awareness and coordination to pull off the kind of amazing feats in a tangled, melee milieu that hockey players, soccer players, and fighter pilots pull off. Lionel Messi should not be an aberration. He should be the standard for mid-level D&D Fighters.

- Inspiring their teammates and subordinates to be better than they can be by themselves, such that the whole becomes much greater. Like Messi or Jordan, Captain Winters of "Easy" Company, Erwin Rommel, Bernard Montgomery, George Patton, and Douglas MacArthur should be the normal deal for fantasy Fighters.

Parkour is certainly a good trick, something that should be available to any "martial" character. Certainly Rogues as well as Fighters, probably Rangers and Barbarians too. There's a medieval manual that claims a knight should be able to climb the underside of a scaling ladder using just their arms, which sounds a neat trick. And I agree that experiences "commander" types should be capable of the things you suggest, and predicting how an enemy they know - either personally, or by reputation - will react if they set up a certain situation. "Pang Quan will die under this tree" sort of thing, and this should work on a smaller scale too when fighting individuals.

How about a defensive tricks?

Iron Door stance. While defending like this, you cannot attack, but you can make an attack roll against any attack on you. If your attack is higher than there's you deflect the strike. Probably should only work fully if your weapon is as large as theirs, or with a shield. It should apply to missile attacks too, to permit arrow-cutting styles.

As for high levels, what's the goal there? Are we modelling fighters like Beowulf, Odysseus, Lancelot, Perseus? What should they be doing apart from getting bigger numbers on the same old things? Do we need something more for the ones who are effectively demi-god-like, Guan Yu, Arjuna, Heracles, et al?

How about with any fighter, if they're fighting an opponent with six or less hit die/levels fewer, they can kill them with any hit? "Your defences are weak?" Justified because they are just so skilled they can place a blow into just the right spot that it kills (cripples? disables?) the target. And yes, I'd include monsters in that, quickly cutting through hordes of enemies is very "high level warrior"-ish, it's only major foes that slow them down.

 

[Sadras]

More seriously, I'll probably be giving Fighter's the following:

Incredible Athlete: At level 2, a Fighter can spend 12 seconds (2 rounds) focusing to add his fighter level to any strength check he immediately makes afterward involving a short burst of power, such as breaking out of chains or bending bars. If the fighter does the same before a jump, triple the distance.

Something for the Fighter to do outside of his class features. Action Surge is a purely combat power, so it's okay to give the Fighter something that really doesn't have much combat utility. At level 20, the fighter is going to be able to be rolling +25 or so for their strength checks...but I think that's okay.

Just to point out this does not follow 5e's Bounded Accuracy policy. You might want to consider, the limitations associated with this class feature, or is this just a given infinite innate ability?

Combat Expertise: At level 3, the first time a fighter hit an enemy, double the bonus from strength or dexterity to damage.

When I was running the numbers on the Fighter vs the Cleric, I noticed that Fighters in combat are going to be significantly worse than war priest clerics when it comes to hitting things in the face until level 5, which is just weird. So give Fighter's a small boost, one that doesn't multiply with Action Surge or their multiple attacks.

Fighters receive additional attacks. Have you tested the numbers for the entire level range 1-20 and still found the war priest clerics to be on top?

 

[Capricia]

Just to point out this does not follow 5e's Bounded Accuracy policy. You might want to consider, how limitations associated with this class feature, or is this just a given infinite innate ability?

Clerics get a +10 attack bonus from channel divinity at level 2, which seems to go against that design goal too. This boost is in a very targeted manner. Takes 12 seconds of doing nothing, only lasts for a single action, only applies to feats of strength. Getting a really high result doesn't really break the game, certainly not in the way that Wish or Trap the Soul or Teleport or any number of other effects do.

Fighters receive additional attacks. Have you tested the numbers for the entire level range 1-20 and still found the war priest clerics to be on top?

Which is why I said "until level 5", which is when they get their extra attack which works super well with action surge and literally doubles their damage output. Since this boost would only apply at most once a round whether they hit once or eight times, it basically just smooths things out so that the fighter doesn't have to wait till level 5 to start being the best at simple fighting.

 

[Bluenose]

Lethal Damage: Creatures you hit with a discernable anatomy become Wounded. Wounded creatures take a -5 penalty to all checks, saves, and attacks, must succeed on a DC 20 constitution save to perform complicated actions like spellcasting, and take 1d6 damage at the end of each turn. This extra damage can be stopped with a DC 15 Wisdom (Medicine) check. The Wounded condition can be removed with the Regeneration spell or one week of rest. If a Wounded creature would be Wounded again, it dies.

That looks like a "two hits and you're dead rule" (the first wounds, the second wounds a wounded enemy who dies). Is that what you're going for? With fighters getting multiple attacks/round as they level up, does that mean they do that in one round unless they miss? I've got something similar, but only for significantly weaker enemies.

More seriously, I'll probably be giving Fighter's the following:

Incredible Athlete: At level 2, a Fighter can spend 12 seconds (2 rounds) focusing to add his fighter level to any strength check he immediately makes afterward involving a short burst of power, such as breaking out of chains or bending bars. If the fighter does the same before a jump, triple the distance.

Something for the Fighter to do outside of his class features. Action Surge is a purely combat power, so it's okay to give the Fighter something that really doesn't have much combat utility. At level 20, the fighter is going to be able to be rolling +25 or so for their strength checks...but I think that's okay.

Is there a case for extending that to any characteristic where they have Proficiency, or perhaps all physical stats (Str, Con, Dex)? And also give it to Rogues and Barbarians. Maybe give double proficiency bonus, instead of level, though that might not be large enough for the most epic feats.

Combat Expertise: At level 3, the first time a fighter hit an enemy, double the bonus from strength or dexterity to damage.

When I was running the numbers on the Fighter vs the Cleric, I noticed that Fighters in combat are going to be significantly worse than war priest clerics when it comes to hitting things in the face until level 5, which is just weird. So give Fighter's a small boost, one that doesn't multiply with Action Surge or their multiple attacks.

Sounds sensible, maybe add proficiency bonus as well or instead.

 

[Capricia]

That looks like a "two hits and you're dead rule" (the first wounds, the second wounds a wounded enemy who dies). Is that what you're going for? With fighters getting multiple attacks/round as they level up, does that mean they do that in one round unless they miss? I've got something similar, but only for significantly weaker enemies.

That was entirely a joke. Just poking fun at the doam crowd.

Is there a case for extending that to any characteristic where they have Proficiency, or perhaps all physical stats (Str, Con, Dex)? And also give it to Rogues and Barbarians. Maybe give double proficiency bonus, instead of level, though that might not be large enough for the most epic feats.

There's totally a case for it. Rogues already get double their proficiency bonus to 4 skills, and really every class should have scaling, cool things they can do as they level up.

Sounds sensible, maybe add proficiency bonus as well or instead.

Adding proficiency to damage is way more elegant! Nice idea.

 

[Nagol]

- Imposing their will on their peers, like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods, such that they wilt or naturally subordinate.

You know, people have tried that with me over the years. It has never done anything but piss me off. Not that I won't defer to others but that deference is based on the belief the one being deferred to is in fact best suited to the situation. I do not believe I am particularly special wrt willpower either. Attack the problem; ignore the rivals.

- Free-running and climbing like the freakish athletes and Olympic gymnasts of the world (check youtube for the guy that climbs like a monkey!).

Are we still talking Fighter or have we slipped into the Rogue?

- Literally shrugging off wounds that would mentally or physically cripple lesser folks, as the elite soldiers of this world do.

Requires a system where wounds are possible. Half the people who discuss hit point in-game manifestation reject that.

- Having the patience, skill, and strategic acumen to lay in the same position, unnoticed, in the bush for 3 straight days, observing the enemy, and reporting back with a perfect conception of what they saw and extrapolation of what it means (or what is to come).

Are we still talking Fighter or have we slipped into the Rogue?

- The absurd proprioception, spatial awareness and coordination to pull off the kind of amazing feats in a tangled, melee milieu that hockey players, soccer players, and fighter pilots pull off. Lionel Messi should not be an aberration. He should be the standard for mid-level D&D Fighters.

Sure, but how to model it? What is it everyone else is forbidden to do?

- Inspiring their teammates and subordinates to be better than they can be by themselves, such that the whole becomes much greater. Like Messi or Jordan, Captain Winters of "Easy" Company, Erwin Rommel, Bernard Montgomery, George Patton, and Douglas MacArthur should be the normal deal for fantasy Fighters.

So the Fighter kills the Bard and takes his stuff? No other class can offer inspiring leadership? I'd prefer to see that left open for all classes, actually.