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D&D 5E Things that the non-magical Fighter could do

If they're not restricted by class then there's no compelling reason to have a class system.
Maybe not. But I'd argue that simply prepackaging a combination of abilities in an easily comprehensible way is the main function of a class. Exclusivity is fairly incidental.

'Restriction' doesn't necessarily mean a blanket prohibition, but there's no way a Wizard should be any good at Fighter maneuvers without some Multiclassing.
Well, fighter/wizard characters have pretty much always been garbage in any version of D&D. I don't know that this is a good thing. Untrained magic use has pretty much always been off the table. Sneak attack/backstab has always been an odd exception rather than a general phenomenon that happens when you catch someone off-guard. Those are definitely the status quo, but I don't know that they have any merit beyond that.

The disintegration of niche protection is one of the things that made 3.X so unbalanced.
It's what made it so fantastic. The defining experience of 3e is being a player and feeling like you can create the character you want, not the character the designers had in mind. I can't imagine any other consideration being sufficiently important for players to give that up.
 
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Well, fighter/wizard characters have pretty much always been garbage in any version of D&D.

Actually 4e accomplishes the archetype extremely well in 3 different iterations. Well, only 2 if you say the Hexblade is a Fighter/Warlock (which it is). But if you mean Fighter/Magic-User then he would count. Both the Swordmage and the Bladesinger are legitimate Fighter/Wizards, each very different in their suite of abilities and specialty, and they both perform quite well in their respective roles.

The main problem in past editions is the incoherency of design, the lack of focus which leads to a sort of monk-like "does a bunch of stuff but none of it well." They eschew an outcome-based-design for an organic approach. Unfortunately, you can't make a functional crossover vehicle by just throwing together the chassis and turbocharged v8 of a Ferrari and the suspension and gearbox of an SUV and just hope for the best. In the same way, you can't just bring together the disparate features/abilities of the F and the M-U and expect something competitively proficient (at any job really) to emerge. In order for an F/M-U to function, there needs to be a clear and transparent focus of "what exactly is this guy trying to do" and there needs to be a bridge that synthesizes the divergent F and MU power sets/features which ultimately gives life to that focus. Do those things, and make whatever bridge that synthesizes the roles actually interesting/tactically engaging in play, and that output can be pretty nifty.

Come to think of it, the Skald (Essentials Bard) probably serves as yet another coherent iteration of an F/M-U. And if we're good with an M-U being any kind of magic, then of course the Warden and Paladin are in play. Heck, front-line combatants mixing martial and magic also includes the Barbarian/Essentials Scout (both primal magic), and the Avenger/Paladin/Warpriest (Divine). Even a melee burst/blast Dragon Sorcerer fits the bill (and well).

Regardless of how you classify it, each and every one of those classes have a very specific design focus and a suite of class feature/abilities/powers that directly work toward accomplishing it. The 5e Fighter is supposed to have an Eldritch Knight subclass. I'll be curious if its an organic mush of "stuff that doesn't lead to a coherent whole" or an actually focused subclass.
 

Actually 4e accomplishes the archetype extremely well in 3 different iterations.
Not going there.

The main problem in past editions is the incoherency of design, the lack of focus which leads to a sort of monk-like "does a bunch of stuff but none of it well." They eschew an outcome-based-design for an organic approach. Unfortunately, you can't make a functional crossover vehicle by just throwing together the chassis and turbocharged v8 of a Ferrari and the suspension and gearbox of an SUV and just hope for the best.
The problem of incoherency is manifest in the way magic works (or doesn't). It isn't about outcomes, it's about having two distinct processes (d20 and the whole spell slot mess), and trying to merge them together. Skill-based magic completely fixes the issue, but we're clearly not there yet, with D&D.

Or, to go the other route, you're essentially claiming that merging spells with a new category of nonmagical spells fixes it.
 


The problem of incoherency is manifest in the way magic works (or doesn't). It isn't about outcomes, it's about having two distinct processes (d20 and the whole spell slot mess), and trying to merge them together. Skill-based magic completely fixes the issue, but we're clearly not there yet, with D&D.

Or, to go the other route, you're essentially claiming that merging spells with a new category of nonmagical spells fixes it.

That is part of it, yes. But that isn't the whole score. Depending on the edition, another major problem might be the prohibitive nature of the action economy disallowing anything resembling a balanced, and functional, simultaneous usage of sword and spell. Another problem might be, due to the multiclassing system, the default stats of the character end up not being equal to the task of a front line melee combatant. Another issue (and not a small one) is the crippling effect on overall effectiveness of MAD. Yet another problem, and not a small one, is (depending on edition) there may not be any thematic functionality that actually supports the archetype to make it distinctive; its just a pile of stuff. Here is a good example of these things in action:

In 1992, the infamous, and much decried, Complete Book of Elves was released for AD&D 2e. Within it was the Bladesinger kit. Much like when the Monk was initially released in 3e, people went OMG OP (!) when they saw the kit and considered those bonuses in a vacuum. Those bonuses were (a) + 1 to hit and damage with one weapon (while losing the bonus with the bow), (b) a bonus to defense when spellcasting but an increase in cast time (more probable attacks against you during spellcasting but less likely to get through total), and (c) a + 1 bonus/4 levels to combat maneuvers. Looks great on paper, right? Not so much in play. When compared to the terror of a straight Fighter, their best comparison as what is supposed to be a front line melee combatant, they were terrible. This was due to loss of advanced weapon spec, loss of base rate of attacks, base thac0, you basically had to have elven chain, a huge difference in HP, and a deep level of MAD (causing all the effects that MAD does). The Bladesinger could not outdo the Fighter. Compared to the Wizard or Cleric (?). Uh no. Because Wizard or Cleric. What's more, the class didn't have any real glue to bring it all together to make it a coherent whole as a unit in play. They had some decent thematic stuff that was mostly just Jedi knock-off for elves. And no support to be able to actually cast spells and fight in melee at the same time.

Fast forward 18 and 20 years to the FR campaign and Neverwinter campaign settings and the releases of the 4e Swordmage and Bladesinger. Here we have a classes who don't suffer from any of the above problems. They don't suffer from multiclassing rules generally. They don't suffer from MAD. They don't suffer from lack of focus on "what they're trying to get done." The Swordmage is sturdy as all get out with the base chassis of a Defender. Through spell, steel, light armor, and magical warding, it controls the battlefield with instant teleports and reprisal for enemies attacking allies, and unleashes blasts/bursts of elemental energy. In cool Jedi fashion, it can fling its sword and pull its sword back to it. The Bladesinger has the base chassis of a Striker. True to the source material, it gets a bonus when spellcasting, but this bonus is no OAs when casting a spell. Also true to the source material, it relies on one handed melee weapons. It relies on light armor and an armor bonus due to its swordplay providing a shield bonus (like the SM's Warding but martial and not magic). While it can cast (powerful) Wizard Utility Spells (such as Shield, D-Door, Fireshield, Stoneskin, etc) and encounter spells (such as Burning Hands) as dailies, its defining features actually synthesize the idea of sword and spell. Its Bladespells allow for at-will channeling of small spells through melee attacks. It flurries with a melee attack (unleashing another Bladespell) when it uses its Wizard encounters. But its primary feature is the Bladesong encounter power which is a ridiculously powerful buff that grants bonuses to all defenses, to hit, a huge damage bonus, and an interrupting counterattack if struck in melee. The trick of the class is to extend Bladesong (so you're always, or virtually always, in the trance) and deploy what amounts to a sustained nova while controlling the battlefield (positioning and who gets attacked) with your spells and your OA reprisal if struck in melee. And neither are even remotely OP as they work seemlessly with 4e architecture.

2 different takes on the same shtick. A robust action economy ensures no AE issues. No prohibitive multiclassing issues. No crippling MAD issues. And distinctive suites of abilities and synthesizing glue that emboldens archetype (while even having diversity within archetype) and allows for front line melee combatants that has competitive parity with their peers.

5e would do well if they looked right there (and at the Avenger and Warden) for their support of the F/M-U archetypes. If they ignore those design requirements, its going to be Monk-like "looks great on paper, crap in game" all over again.
 

Not going there.
Why not? This is how a discussion works: you make a point, someone else makes a counterpoint. If you just dismiss anything that goes against your argument then you're not doing so well.

Or, to go the other route, you're essentially claiming that merging spells with a new category of nonmagical spells fixes it.
They're not "non magic spells", they're arcane spells that use a sword as the implement.

It's what made it so fantastic. The defining experience of 3e is being a player and feeling like you can create the character you want, not the character the designers had in mind. I can't imagine any other consideration being sufficiently important for players to give that up.
Wait what? Being able to create the character you want is a basic defining experience of all traditional RPGs, regardless of which one and which edition. The fact that 3.X offers a broader range of freedom in the mechanical end of this is not sufficiently important to many players to put up with the fact that most of those options are terrible unless you're a Wizard or CoDZilla. D&D Next was not designed in a vacuum, and as much as it's moving away from things that some players disliked about 4th Edition, it's also doing a lot more to establish balance and niche protection than they did with 3E.

Creating a character exactly to your specifications with point-buy is something you can do in plenty of games, many of which even have the sort of 'classes' as prebuilt packages, but that's always going to come with the tradeoff that balance is never going to be as tight as class-based games. There are just too many combinations of mechanics and circumstances. I've been sufficiently satisfied with the diversity of options in 4E and have felt I could make pretty much any character I wanted within the genre, and I hope DDN is similarly robust. But they have to draw a line somewhere, and D&D will probably never draw the line where you want it.
 
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Why not? This is how a discussion works: you make a point, someone else makes a counterpoint. If you just dismiss anything that goes against your argument then you're not doing so well.

To be fair to Ahnehnois, I chalked the comment up to a sincere attempt to preempt:

1) collateral edition warring on his part - he's not a fan of 4e for most of the reasons given by detractors. He is a (at least from what I've read) fan of design where a final product is an outgrowth of naturalistic process versus my fandom of outcome-based design. I guess you could say he's a Markov Chain guy and I'm a Deterministic guy. That is probably as central an issue with 3.x vs 4e as any other.

and

2) speaking out of turn. He is admittedly not well-versed in certain aspects of the ruleset (certainly not in the nuance of specific class features and how that specific build design works toward accomplishing its aims). This is why I attempted to break the issue out in deeper detail in case he is inclined to be drawn in by the specificities that he may be able to relate on without any collateral edition warring!
 

5e would do well if they looked right there (and at the Avenger and Warden) for their support of the F/M-U archetypes. If they ignore those design requirements, its going to be Monk-like "looks great on paper, crap in game" all over again.

To be fair, I don't think the Bladesinger was actually bad, a weak link in difficult situations, the way the 3e Monk managed to be. Not the powerhouse kit that some people thought, but adequate enough. Of course I may be remembering the later parts of the career of the one I saw in play, and also comparing to how that character turned out when converted to 3e as a F5/W5 - that really was a terrible way to do it, even if it's what the conversion document seemed to suggest.

I've got to agree though, the Warrior/Mage archetype worked best with classes designed to do that from the start. Not just the 4e ones you suggest, but the Elf from BECMI was solid if limited, and several retro-clones have made effective classes that way. Multiclassing is a decent candidate for the worst thing D&D has ever done.
 

Automatic damage can be non-magical, but they should limit how often it may be used, and reserve it for higher levels when it would be more likely to be present as an ability for any class.
 

To be fair, I don't think the Bladesinger was actually bad, a weak link in difficult situations, the way the 3e Monk managed to be. Not the powerhouse kit that some people thought, but adequate enough. Of course I may be remembering the later parts of the career of the one I saw in play, and also comparing to how that character turned out when converted to 3e as a F5/W5 - that really was a terrible way to do it, even if it's what the conversion document seemed to suggest.

I've got to agree though, the Warrior/Mage archetype worked best with classes designed to do that from the start. Not just the 4e ones you suggest, but the Elf from BECMI was solid if limited, and several retro-clones have made effective classes that way. Multiclassing is a decent candidate for the worst thing D&D has ever done.

Agreed * 3 (on Bladesinger, on Elf from BECMI, on Multiclassing).
 

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