D&D General Thinking about Cantrips (building from 3.5/PF/4e/5e/A5E)

[cbwjm]

The way I remember it working back in the 80s was that cantrips were simple, innocuous little magics one could cast at any time and at no cost, but there weren't any available that did some actual damage during combat. If the game went back to such a model, wouldn't many of the complaints about overpowered casters kind of go away? Because in this case the martial classes really would be needed. Or am I misremembering this and damage-dealing cantrips were in there right from 1e??? I just don't recall ever seeing them, you know?

From what I know, that's how cantrips worked back then. Not sure this would really affect the so-called power disparity as I think it is the more powerful spells at higher levels that people cite as the main power imbalance.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I wouldnt mind combat cantrips if they'd all work like Booming Blade, Shillelagh, Produce Flame or Magic Stones, or touch spells. Meaning you can bolster your normal attacks with small magical effect. Make Flame Arrow a concentration spell good for three ranged attacks that change the damage type to fire damage, make Acid Splash the acidic equivalent of Green-Flame Blade, Frostbite could work as a touch attack similar to booming blade. Ghoul Chill Touch should be 1) a touch 2) maybe affecting all your touch attacks for 1 minute, ala Shillelagh.

I think we can agree that a wizard forced to rely on a mundane crossbow or whacking with a staff is kinda dull, but if we give the casters a way to be magical even when they must rely on less high-magic effects it would make the presence of damage cantrips less irritating.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Did 1e have cantrips? Or was that one of the late 2e source books? Or did they show up in UA?

We had them, but they weren't in the books. I remember when a hack-and-slash buddy of mine described them to me when they first came out and how excited we both were, because back then a 1e wizard had exactly one spell to cast per day, and it almost always ended up being Magic Missile.

So I'm pretty sure they were part of what has become the UA material while still in the time of 1e, because this was the 80s.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Does 4e get that part of cantrips right? (Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, and Prestidigitation?

Well sort of?

I would give them a few more options in cantrips and they get away with non-damaging cantrips by giving everyone at-will attacks.

This part of cantrips is awesome.

It's the impact of unlimited ranged weapons that is off-putting to me, still after so many years of 5e. The combat cantrips "so they don't just keep using a crossbow" are more effective than any crossbow.

I mean, this wouldn't be a problem if they just made martial 'at-will' attacks better, but magic always has to one-up mundane or else it 'doesn't feel like D&D' or some other sentiment that's ruinous to the game.

 

[Cadence]

We had them, but they weren't in the books. I remember when a hack-and-slash buddy of mine described them to me when they first came out and how excited we both were, because back then a 1e wizard had exactly one spell to cast per day, and it almost always ended up being Magic Missile.

So I'm pretty sure they were part of what has become the UA material while still in the time of 1e, because this was the 80s.

It was in UA

and I have no recollection of there being this many!!

 

[Voadam]

Cantrips were in 1e Unearthed Arcana as a sort of 0th level limited number of vancian magic-user spells (3 per day once you hit 1st level MU). None of them were hp damaging though.

In 2e this got changed to the 1st level cantrip spell which could do any minor magic effect (little wish).

 

[Voadam]

It was in UA

View attachment 152523

and I have no recollection of there being this many!!

View attachment 152524

Beat me to it.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Sneeze and Yawn both look pretty good, IMO. Imagine making some high-powered foe sneeze right in the middle of combat; I'd take that cantrip over Unseen Servant any day.

EDIT: From a quick read, Cough looks even better.

 

[tetrasodium]

I never really liked the 3.x& PF cantrips/Level 0 spells/orisons(?) were so weak & limited they basically never got used for anything & were pretty pointless as a result. With that said.... the 5e cantrips provide a good default attack alternative to crossbow/sling/racial weapons in a fun & thematic way but they are worse for reasons nobody has mentioned.

Specifically the fact that they scale by character level means that the actions casters do most commonly & most easily supplemented or modified with equipment is removed from what might otherwise be called loot tables. Watch the players closely while describing a treasure hoard.... martials are wide eyed & excited to hear what's in it while casters can pretty safely assume that there won't be some cool wand in it.

 

[Cadence]

Sneeze and Yawn both look pretty good, IMO. Imagine making some high-powered foe sneeze right in the middle of combat; I'd take that cantrip over Unseen Servant any day.

Wow there are a lot of them that seem useful in social situations...