D&D General Thinking about Cantrips (building from 3.5/PF/4e/5e/A5E)

[Staffan]

This part of cantrips is awesome.

It's the impact of unlimited ranged weapons that is off-putting to me, still after so many years of 5e. The combat cantrips "so they don't just keep using a crossbow" are more effective than any crossbow.

They might be more effective than a crossbow in the hands of a wizard, but they're nowhere near as good as the attacks of a martial. Martials get to add ability score to damage to each attack, often have magic weapons, and usually have abilities that make their attacks even stronger. A 5th level fighter with a longsword and dueling style makes two attacks that each deal 1d8+6 (plus magic) points, one who's an archer makes two attacks at 1d8+4 but at +2 to hit, while a 5th level caster casting a cantrip makes one attack dealing 2d4 to 2d10. The fighter is way ahead, and that's as it should be, but it's nice for the caster to have something to contribute while either out of spells or if conserving spell slots.

Okay, I've been wondering about this for years, but I've always kept my mouth shut because I don't think I'm informed enough about the different D&D editions to make this judgment. What I've wondered--and it relates to the complaints about casters being overpowered--is the following: what would happen if the game got rid of all damage-dealing cantrips?

Being a low-level caster would be less fun, but it wouldn't really affect higher-level casters much because their proper spells are where their power is.

 

[Shiroiken]

It's the impact of unlimited ranged weapons that is off-putting to me, still after so many years of 5e. The combat cantrips "so they don't just keep using a crossbow" are more effective than any crossbow.

In general, cantrips aren't more effective than a crossbow, except for the caster themselves. A martial with a weapon is going to out damage cantrips until at least level 11, and at least the fighter will continue to do so until level 17. Cantrips often have kicker effects to make up for this loss of damage, with the lower damage dice cantrips generally having better effects. Cantrips primary benefit is to remove the reliance on a secondary "attack ability score," such as Dex. I keep using the word general, because there are exceptions, such as Toll of the Dead, which annoyingly break the mold.

If you have such an issue with the attack cantrips, you can simply ban them as a DM. This will force PC casters to fall back on crossbows, but they'll likely be dealing similar amounts of damage (they're just less likely to hit). One likely consequence will be an increased desire for Long Rests, since they're going to use spell slots more frequently. I saw the idea of completely removing damaging spells, which I think is a really cool idea for certain campaigns (although it does neuter certain sub-classes).

 

[bedir than]

In general, cantrips aren't more effective than a crossbow, except for the caster themselves. A martial with a weapon is going to out damage cantrips until at least level 11,

Unlimited vs limited, so even if the damage is slightly better at 3rd level. The fighter runs out and the wizard doesn't.

 

[bedir than]

often have magic weapons,

When you don't play rules as written, your white room is better -- sure.

 

[tetrasodium]

When you don't play rules as written, your white room is better -- sure.

Magic weapons and the mechanics of them are very much within RAW, as is the simple fact of who does more damage when between weapon users & can trip casters . What are you trying to say?

 

[Vaalingrade]

When you don't play rules as written, your white room is better -- sure.

RAW has little meaning when RAW is 'Ask Your DM'.

 

[Shiroiken]

Unlimited vs limited, so even if the damage is slightly better at 3rd level. The fighter runs out and the wizard doesn't.

If you're a ranged focused martial, you should never run out of ammo (barring stuff being destroyed). Your standard quiver/case holds 20, and you can recover half your spent ammo. You can easily carry an additional 2-3 "reloads" packed away to use between combats. This means that you can have up to 90 shot during an adventure, not counting any ammo you take from fallen enemies. You're technically correct, but actual gameplay shows this difference negligible/irrelevant.

 

[Helldritch]

The problem with nerfing or removing damage cantrips in 5ed is that it was done for a balance reason. Spells no longer scale with level and got their damage fixed to slots. Spell slots were drastically reduced compared to their 1ed and 2ed counter parts. Magic items were also drastically reduced. Wands had 100 charges and could be used until they ran out of them. The user of a wand of fire was not limited to 7 fireballs per day but could cast up to 50 if needed.

The same goes along with the lessen spell slots, a 20th level 1ed wizard could cast 5/5/5/5/5/4/3/3/2. Compare this to the pitiful 4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1. And the fact that the fireballs of the 1ed wizard would do up to 20d6, his magic missiles would do 10d4+10. The 5th edition wizard without cantrip simply can't do the same amount of damage. Upcast is great, but hardly on par with what the 1ed wizard could do. All this was to give a fighting chance to the wizard. With only 1 attack per round, if the wizard misses, it's over while the martial can have at least two chances to hit and be meaningful. Even the rogue can use a bonus action to get a second chance for a sneak.

The wizard came from being the main damage dealer of a group at high level to a support cast better at control than damage. Even his ability to boost the other offensive capacity or his own defenses have been reduced through the concentration mechanic.

So... what is the problem with having powerful cantrips when the wizard has been, in all but name, almost completely defanged? And here you could add the sorcerer too.


Yes they are still pretty much powerful, that much is obvious. But they are no longer on the scale of 1ed. If you truly want to reduce or remove cantrips then you have to augment the amount of spell slots and make damage from spells not only rise by spell slots but also by level. Otherwise, the casters will no longer be a treath. Unless that is your goal and not see anyone eager to play a caster?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

The same goes along with the lessen spell slots, a 20th level 1ed wizard could cast 5/5/5/5/5/4/3/3/2. Compare this to the pitiful 4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1. And the fact that the fireballs of the 1ed wizard would do up to 20d6, his magic missiles would do 10d4+10. The 5th edition wizard without cantrip simply can't do the same amount of damage. Upcast is great, but hardly on par with what the 1ed wizard could do. All this was to give a fighting chance to the wizard.

Speaking as someone who only plays martial character most of the time, even I would have preferred if they'd pick one of the ''nerf'': less slots OR no auto-scaling with level.

I personally dislike that cantrips, the lesser of all spells, can auto-scale to beat the damage of slot-restricted spells.

Maybe one option could have been to reduce the spell slots like they did, and have the spells auto-scale, but not with the caster's level, but with their Proficiency bonus.

Ex: a fireball deals 5d6 + 1d6 per PB point. Magic missile is 1 missile + a number of missile equal to PB.

 

[Helldritch]

Speaking as someone who only plays martial character most of the time, even I would have preferred if they'd pick one of the ''nerf'': less slots OR no auto-scaling with level.

I personally dislike that cantrips, the lesser of all spells, can auto-scale to beat the damage of slot-restricted spells.

Maybe one option could have been to reduce the spell slots like they did, and have the spells auto-scale, but not with the caster's level, but with their Proficiency bonus.

Ex: a fireball deals 5d6 + 1d6 per PB point. Magic missile is 1 missile + a number of missile equal to PB.

I too find that cantrip autoscaling is not very elegant, but is is better than nothing. Considering that the casters have been nerfed in spell slots, damage and also through the concentration mechanic.

The fact that cantrips will outdamage low level spells is not that bad either though. It just means that at some point, the caster will shift the spell selection toward utility spells and rely on cantrips for damaging his opponents. A high level wizard will use most of his 1st level spell slots on shield spells anyways... And so far, Blur is the most used 2nd level spell of all with misty step a very close second. So many choices reduced to only two...