Third Party Character Creation iOS App Removed

The d20 Fight Club for D&D 5th Edition iOS app has been removed from the Apple App Store by its creator at the request of WotC. The creator reports that he received a Cease & Desist demand (although it's worth noting that some supposed recent C&Ds appear to have turned out to be amicable requests). This follows on from the removal of the D&D Tools website and the more recent online character generator.

The creator reports that "I received a cease and desist order from Wizards of the Coast. All D&D apps will be removed from the App Store as they weren't compliant with WotC's copyrights and trademarks. Hopefully they'll be back in some form someday. Til then, thanks for all the support."

Nobody has actually shared one of these C&Ds yet, and others have indicated that what they actually received was simply a friendly email asking that they respect WotC's trademarks, so it's not entirely clear what is happening. Hopefully somebody will share one soon!

It does look like this particular app contained text and stat blocks copied directly from the D&D books. Below is the DM version of the app (the companion to the character creation app).

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[ren1999]

Wizards has the right to police its copy right and remove all products even though they don't have an official character generator.

Wizards also has the right to lose its entire fan base.

 

[delericho]

I'm now calling for a boycott of Wizards.
Let's make our own game.

Isn't it just more efficient to instead switch to one of the many other games that are out there already - be it Pathfinder, 13th Age, Firefly, or whatever else suits?

As for a boycott of Wizards, I'm not sure how that would work, since they stubbornly refuse to produce anything for us to buy.

 

[ren1999]

I'm considering those games, yes.

 

[Paraxis]

I'm considering those games, yes.

13th Age is wonderful, if I wasn't playing 5e I would be playing that.

Here is the Pelgrane Press licensing page http://www.pelgranepress.com/site/?tag=licensing&cat=248

Here is an online SRD site http://www.13thagesrd.com/

I have no issues with companies running themselves how they wish, WoTC will still get my business as long as I enjoy the game, but good gaming to you and your group.

 

[ExploderWizard]

This one was a for profit enterprise so I don't fault WOTC for shutting it down. Fan made stuff just to share with other fans is one thing, but setting up a business and profiting from it is a whole different bucket of worms. If it was popular, and worked well, then perhaps they should consider offering the creator a consultant job. After all, he not only demonstrated the ability to create a product, but get it to market successfully as well.

 

[Carl H]

There is lots of fantastic fantasy RPG's available from other companies. There is a lot of good reasons to play them instead of D&D.

WOTC defending it's copyright is not a very good reason to decide to stop playing a game you like.

My suspicion is that the people proclaiming that this is going to stop them from playing 5e were either not playing to begin with or already on their way out.

 

[DEFCON 1]

There is a right way and a wrong way when dealing with your customer base.

I've been dealing with multinationals in my sphere of influence. you NEVER piss off your customer base. Because the majority of the time you are not going to get them back.

Yes Hasbro is a huge company, but news does travel fast about anything perceived or not. It also helps their competition as well.
Any name brand can become toxic. Right now with their sub standard modules, their layoffs, and these robo C&D's sounds like to me that WotC has been given a quota to meet on a yearly basis.

Looks like to me another 4thED business fiasco in the making.

Finally it does NOT matter if Hasbro is right or wrong. It is HOW Hasbro is handling their IP's. And it looks like this is the standard heavy handed method. Quite frankly, at this moment this is the typical business tactic done by a souless organization.

Sorry dude... but the few people who have actually downloaded and used this app aren't their customer base. At best, it's a customer fringe. Their customer base are the tens of thousands of players who buy the books, play the game, and that's it. They NEVER go on message boards, they never pay attention to what is or isn't released until they see it on the shelves or on Amazon or the D&D website, and they never use anything other than whatever they have made for themselves.

So if they annoy the handful of players who actually give a rat's ass about Cease & Desist letters, then too bad for them. The other 98.5% of the player base will continue playing D&D the same way we always have, unconcerned and none's the wiser.

 

[Morrus]

Their customer base are the tens of thousands of players who buy the books, play the game, and that's it. They NEVER go on message boards

This 1990s dinosaur is a myth. 10 years ago it was true. Nowadays *everybody* goes on the internet to check out their hobbies, from grandmothers to children. If you're surrounded by people who don't do that, you're in a very unusual situation.

 

[BuddyRich]

Anyone know if the 5E DM Minion line on Android was also served with a cease and desist? I just bought d20 Fight Club and the DM tool for iPad and ito evaluate it, though decided to still stick with pencil and paper. If they shipped it without monsters and any trademarked references (such a D&D, etc.) they'd probably be OK. Actual rules crunchy bits cannot be copyrighted as far as I am aware. As it is they only included monster stats from the free Basic PDF, not the larger MM so I am not sure if that matters or not, but I don't think the free PDF was released under the OGL as such, but just a freebie with copyright still belonging to WotC.

 

[Toxic_Rat]

This 1990s dinosaur is a myth. 10 years ago it was true. Nowadays *everybody* goes on the internet to check out their hobbies, from grandmothers to children. If you're surrounded by people who don't do that, you're in a very unusual situation.

I doubt that either extreme is correct, as far as D&D goes. Of the six guys playing in my regular campaign, I'm the only one that follows D&D/WotC stuff online with any regularity. Now, they have all asked about digital tools, and when I tell them there are none available, they just shrug it off and pick up the pencil and we go on a playin'.

To be fair, I have been called unusual, so YMMV.

 

[wardrake]

Well. I haven't purchased D&D5 yet nor will I while the Wizzhards can't get decent electronic support for their game and won't let anyone else do it either. I guess me and my $50 per month game budget can just keep on supporting Paizo - bye bye D&D - it was nice knowing you.

 

[Jack99]

Well. I haven't purchased D&D5 yet nor will I while the Wizzhards can't get decent electronic support for their game and won't let anyone else do it either. I guess me and my $50 per month game budget can just keep on supporting Paizo - bye bye D&D - it was nice knowing you.

Can I have your gold before you leave?

 

[ren1999]

I won't tolerate for profit either. So that one was o.k. It is all the other free Character Gens that I'm angry about. Pathguy's application wasn't particularly pretty and it had a few mistakes, but it was vital for organizing the class features and spells. I took my free app down before Wizards could hound me for it.

I had a brief summary of each class and racial feature and a brief summary of each spell that I never published on my website. Too bad Wizards.. Too bad D&D5.. I think I will design my own game and see if it will catch on.

 

[Reynard]

5th Edition is a really good game and a nice counter balance to Pathfinder's much more granular system (also good). Together they almost remind of the 80s with BECMI and AD&D existing side by side. Material isn't really compatible between the two but it isn't a lot of work to use a lot of material between them (especially PF fluff with 5E). That said, what Pathfinder has above 5E is the open nature of the rules because of the OGL. It is trivially easy to find stats or rules online or to find apps and tools to do things like create characters and build encounters. In an increasingly digital world where even our pen and paper hobbies are enhanced by our smartphones, it seems egregiously nshort sighted for there to still be no 5E OGL or fan license, no PDF books and no official or 3rd party electronic support. I think there are a lot more people on the fence between 5E and PF than some folks in this thread are willing to admit, and the presence or lack of digital tools and easily, legally available community creations has a significant impact on where to spend limited entertainment dollars.

 

[Eminence_Grise]

As for a boycott of Wizards, I'm not sure how that would work, since they stubbornly refuse to produce anything for us to buy.

That made me laugh so much! Thanks.

For me, the reaction of Wizards is part of the reality of the modern world. I don't agree with their decision, but I certainly understand it and don't feel entitled for anything.

 

[Curmudjinn]

Wizards is actively tightening down on things in regards to 5e. Pathguy was never bothered until he posted 5th edition character creation information, word for word, which is not allowed. They didn't even allow that information in the SRD for 3rd edition.

As for people saying there is no future electronic products or generators coming out, show me the WotC release plan you have a copy of that says such. Barely anyone knew about Sword Coast: Legends upon its reveal even though it has been in production for quite some time.

These blanket statements without fact just hurt the hobby and impressionable new players. Also, why boycott a product made with love for us by fellows like us, simply because their publisher (WotC) is now firmly handling IP enforcement? Buying a book doesn't keep WotC in business, it keeps great people like Mearls and Perkins and Thompson employed.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

WOTC has every right to defend their IP however they wish. If not, what's to stop bad products from being produced by irresponsible parties that harm their brand? Or for a third party to put out competing products against WOTC's current or planned ones? Once that door is open it becomes very hard to close.

Sure, I'd like an e-tool for D&D, and I'm sure WOTC knows it. Whether one comes along is their choice and becomes a factor in my long-term satisfaction with the game. Until then the sky is not falling and I'll continue having fun.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Sorry dude... but the few people who have actually downloaded and used this app aren't their customer base. At best, it's a customer fringe. Their customer base are the tens of thousands of players who buy the books, play the game, and that's it. They NEVER go on message boards, they never pay attention to what is or isn't released until they see it on the shelves or on Amazon or the D&D website, and they never use anything other than whatever they have made for themselves.

So if they annoy the handful of players who actually give a rat's ass about Cease & Desist letters, then too bad for them. The other 98.5% of the player base will continue playing D&D the same way we always have, unconcerned and none's the wiser.

Man, you said it before I did. This is 100% true. "Entire fan base"? Come on people. Fringe is exactly right.

This 1990s dinosaur is a myth. 10 years ago it was true. Nowadays *everybody* goes on the internet to check out their hobbies, from grandmothers to children. If you're surrounded by people who don't do that, you're in a very unusual situation.

I don't think so. I'm in a very similar situation. But don't take my word for it. How many active users do you have in this 5e forum on a weekly basis? How many people do you think play 5e on a weekly basis? I feel very comfortable saying that the vast majority of 5e players don't hang out on internet forums, let alone think of boycotting WotC for things like this. Nope, instead I see the vast majority of 5e players continue to play 5e whether or not there's an online character generator because they enjoy playing 5e.

Heck, I know a LOT of people who ban electronic devices at game tables except for the DM.

 

[Morrus]

But don't take my word for it.

Don't worry! I don't plan to!

How many active users do you have in this 5e forum on a weekly basis?

Ah, I see the confusion! When I said "online" I didn't mean "on EN World". I'm not quite so arrogant as to assume my little website constitutes the internet! Though, for the record, about 250,000 unique users read EN World each month.

No, they use social networks. Facebook, Twitter, G+, Reddit. And they see a *lot* of stuff. This stuff is all over the place. WotC has half a million fans on its Facebook page alone, and that's not even touching how the stuff spreads on networks.

It's 2015. The internet's a thing now! These people exist, and in very large numbers.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Ah, I see the confusion! When I said "online" I didn't mean "on EN World". I'm not quite so arrogant as to assume my little website constitutes the internet! Though, for the record, about 250,000 unique users read EN World each month.

No, they use social networks. Facebook, Twitter, G+, Reddit. And they see a *lot* of stuff. This stuff is all over the place. WotC has half a million fans on its Facebook page alone, and that's not even touching how the stuff spreads on networks.

It's 2015. The internet's a thing now! These people exist, and in very large numbers.

I'm not disagreeing that the internet is a thing. I'm disagreeing with how inflated you are making the numbers.

For example, even though ENWorld isn't the only site, it is one of the largest, and I can't help notice that the people making the posts here are by and large the same people who make the posts at the RPGSite, RPG.net, and the official WoTC forums.

And that unique visitors per month? Doesn't answer my question. How many users come to this forum on a weekly basis? And if you take away all those that came here only once, and only for a minute or so, how many are left? I.e., the people who actually came here looking for information and/or spent enough time here to actually get any information or read a topic? Then compare that with how many people do you think is a reasonable number that played 5e in that same week.

So yeah, the internet has a lot of people. But don't assume that because someone has been on the internet at some point, they go and read threads like this. According to CNN, 83 million of the facebook accounts aren't even real for example. I'm subscribed or "like" a few hundred websites on FB, but I don't keep up with them, nor do I go check to see what they are saying. I'm subscribed to a few dozen G+ communities, but I hardly ever go all of them to see every recent post. I dn't think I'm unusual in that regard.

In other words, some serious grain of salt taking is advised before I'd trust any of those numbers. I would bet my still shrikwrapped Holmes Basic set that the number of people who actually go online with any substantial or significant time investment needed to actually see a conversation like this is way, way lower than what you think it is or what you quoted.