Third Party: If So, Then What?

[pawsplay]

Its possible to take an existing paradigm and build a unique setting with a minimum of new crunch. Eberron is proof of that.

A 3PP Eberron would be crippled. The "minimum of new crunch" you are talking about would include, at the time, a new base class, numerous new feats, the equivalent of new paragon paths, at least three new races, and several new types of magical items. Realistically, I don't think the 4e market for such a thing is much bigger than the Pathfinder market, and depending on competing 4e options, could be a good deal smaller.

If you want to be a 4e publisher, here's what you do:
- Get together with a half-dozen of your favorite 4e would-be 3PP friends
- Find, hire, or enslave two or three programmers to make an open source, non-infringing, offline character creator tool
- Spend your own resources to create the module needed for your setting to work in aforementioned tool

 

[ggroy]

Let's make a list of what may be viable and what isn't for 4E 3pp products.

no-go (or almost no-go)
-----------------------

- new classes
- new powers
- new races
- new feats
- new paragon paths
- new epic destinies


Maybe? Maybe not?
--------------------

- new equipment
- new magic items
- new treasure
- new monsters
- alternate rules on the DM side


Could be viable
--------------

- new skill challenges
- new encounter delves (which can be used out of the box, drag and drop)
- new maps, terrains, etc ...
- new traps

If adventures and settings are primarily desirable from 4E 3PP companies, the "straitjacket" of working within the 4E crunch constraints of the DDI character builder pretty much excludes almost everything in the above "no-go" list and maybe even some of the "maybe?" list.

I'm not quite sure what new campaign settings can be produced with such heavy constraints, which does not look like a clone of Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, etc ... or for that matter, even a clone of a 3pp setting like Pathfinder's Golarion or any other (almost) system-neutral setting. These days I'm not particularly interested in another Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or Golarion clone.

If a new campaign setting insists on having its own distinctive player specific crunch, perhaps the writers may very well be better off writing their own original system of mechanics or writing it for Pathfinder (if they insist on shoehorning it into the d20 style ruleset).

So what's left if one is not interested in clones of FR or Eberron? Better written adventures similar in style to adventures in Dungeon magazine or WotC's H/P/E adventure modules? That's not a whole lot of options.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I don't think that's a very realistic view. There is a large market for a 4e-compatible setting that can be supported by the online tools. The market for a setting that cannot be supported by the tools is much, much smaller. The market for a setting that discards many 4e elements is smaller. The market for a setting that discards many 4e elements and requires crunch support that does not exist in the online tools is so small... it's probably smaller than the Pathfinder market.

The hypothetical buyer:
- Loves 4e crunch and prefers it to other options
- Is willing to move outside the implied 4e setting
- Does not feel new crunch needs to be supported on the computer
- Has heard of your game
- Knows other people who fit the above

I'm going to guess wildly and say you are talking about 1000-1500 people in North America.

Why is the ability/freedom to rewrite 4E required for producing a setting?

 

[Truename]

So what's left if one is not interested in clones of FR or Eberron? Better written adventures similar in style to adventures in Dungeon magazine or WotC's H/P/E adventure modules? That's not a whole lot of options.

Not sure where you're getting "similar in style" from. The requests I'm seeing (including from me) are for adventures that are NOT similar in style to WoTC's. I've had quite enough beat-em-up dungeon-crawls, thank you very much.

 

[ggroy]

Not sure where you're getting "similar in style" from. The requests I'm seeing (including from me) are for adventures that are NOT similar in style to WoTC's. I've had quite enough beat-em-up dungeon-crawls, thank you very much.

The "similar in style" quote was meant to be sarcastic.

I'm thinking of what type of different adventures can be made with the 4E D&D ruleset, which does not resemble generic dungeon crawls and which do not require additional new rules to be added (whether player specific or DM specific).

 

[jmucchiello]

If you want to be a 4e publisher, here's what you do:
- Get together with a half-dozen of your favorite 4e would-be 3PP friends
- Find, hire, or enslave two or three programmers to make an open source, non-infringing, offline character creator tool
- Spend your own resources to create the module needed for your setting to work in aforementioned tool

A non-WotC sponsored character creation tool would be half-baked at best. The 4e-SRD does not have the rule text in it like 3e does. So your tool might allow the user to add powers to a character sheet. But the user would have to read the power descriptions from the books to know what they do.

Besides, the GSL forbids this vociferously. Even if it didn't WotC can unilaterally and without warning revoke your GSL license. If they found out you hired the programmers, I'd expect your access to the GSL to disappear. If lots of 3PPs supported such a program, supporting it would become strictly forbidden by the GSL. I'd like to think I'm way off base here. But WotC has put too many eggs in the DDI basket for me to be less negative about what they might do in this scenario.

 

[Obryn]

As I said way back in my own posts, I am great with new character crunch if it's tied into a new and unique setting. While the Character Builder is an incredible tool, I'd be willing to forego it with the right mix of fluff and crunch in a brilliant setting.

What I don't want is new, generic, player-specific crunch. On the other hand, I'd be all over something like Arcana Evolved, character builder or no character builder.

-O

 

[ggroy]

On the other hand, I'd be all over something like Arcana Evolved, character builder or no character builder.

Do you believe something like a 4E Arcana Evolved will ever see the light of day? Or is it more likely that a Pathfinder Arcana Evolved will be produced than a 4E version? (Or for that matter, Arcana Evolved being redesigned from the ground up with its own original ruleset reflecting the settings' own idiosyncrasies).

 

[pawsplay]

Why is the ability/freedom to rewrite 4E required for producing a setting?

It's not. I was laying out the logistics for writing a setting that wasn't a Greyhawk/Eberron pastiche. Provided your new setting requires no new races, classes, or paragon paths; does not require major alterations to equipment, magical items, wealth, or alignment; and does not require any new subsystems, you are golden. Now all you have to do is explain what benefits, exactly, the buyer can expect to derive from your game setting.

 

[pawsplay]

What I don't want is new, generic, player-specific crunch. On the other hand, I'd be all over something like Arcana Evolved, character builder or no character builder.

But it would be difficult to develop, and you are one of a probably small demographic interested in the final product. Cost/benefit does not look very good for a 4e Arcane Evolved.