Third Party: If So, Then What?

[GMSkarka]

Recently, there's been discussion of the impact of 4E on third-party support. Not many signed on, due to the terms of the GSL, and those that did (or chose non-licensed support) saw that official WOTC tools like the DDI had an adverse effect on sales -- as has been said, there's no point in doing character or rules options if they can't be reflected in the DDI.

We've seen a lot of companies cancel their 4E lines entirely, or just shut their doors, and in recent threads on the topic, a large percentage of 4E fans have expressed no interest in third-party product at all.


For those 4E fans that do want third-party support, however --- I'm sure that my fellow publishers would love to know: Given the status quo (no implementation into DDI, etc.), what exactly would you like to see from third-party publishers?

 

[GreatLemur]

Well, what I'd really like is for WotC to open up the Character Builder's API to us all, but assuming that ain't gonna happen, I think it only makes sense for third-party publishers to focus on producing adventures, adventure components (monsters, traps, skill challenges, terrain types / map features, etc.), and campaign settings.

Really, I think there's a dire need for a big skill challenge tool kit book (featuring both sample skill challenges and big menus of possible success and failure effects to spice up custom challenges), and I'm kinda shocked WotC hasn't published one already. Also, I really dig the gimmick terrains from the DMG2, and think that we could really do with a hell of a lot more to choose from. Why not sell a big book of those complete with map tiles?

Unfortunately, the Character Builder really locks third-party publishers out of the (much larger) non-DM segment of the D&D 4e market. All I could suggest for players would be non-mechanical PC aids like collections of character portraits or books of character concept ideas and other roleplay inspiration.

 

[ScorpiusRisk]

I'll reiterate a bit from a recent thread. There are a few big things I expect in a third party product in order for me, personally, to be interested.

I don't want more player options, unless it's heavily themed or maybe interesting items/vehicles. Feats, classes, Paths, powers are all to hard to keep track of an implement, and we've got a multitude of options in the DDI.

I expect it to be cheaper than a WotC product. If that means cheaper paper, binding or that its a download, that's ok.

I need to be able to preview the content online. That does not mean a summary, it means being able to see actual pages or sections from the book.

Finally, it needs to be heavily themed or offer something Wizards of the Coast does not. I don't have a problem buying Monster books, but they can be such a grab bag that I want to make sure I can use them. A book of ghosts, desert creatures, or alien menaces are much more appealing than a general selection of Monster I hopefully don't already have.

Some examples of things WotC doesn't do would be something like the Toolbox from AEG, which is primarily a prep or improvisational tool. Or even something that Wizards does but only in small amounts. A guide to designing and populating cities would be interesting. Or a guide that lets players build fortresses and towers with pricing.

 

[Jack99]

I want 3pp's who actually understand the rules they are writing for. Way too many of the products released for 4e have been of pretty shoddy quality, crunch-wise.

After that, I would love adventures and settings.

 

[ggroy]

I would be interested in more 4E adventure modules produced by 3PPs. Though in terms of content and quality, I would be looking for modules that are at least as good as the 4E modules Goodman Games has produced so far (ie. Dungeon Crawl Classics, etc ...).

To a lesser degree, I may be interested in 3pp 4E settings which are not excessively heavy with 3pp specific crunch. At the present time, I'm using the non-4E Pathfinder Golarion setting for my 4E game. Many of the Golarion setting supplement books are relatively crunch lite, such as the region books.

I will probably pick up the upcoming 4E Freeport Companion book, and use it with the system-free Freeport books. For other upcoming 4E 3pp setting books, I'll have take a look through them before deciding whether I'm interested. My main determination is whether I can use a setting straight out of the box, or whether there will be resistance due to lots of 3pp setting specific crunch being absent from the DDI. For the players in my 4E game, they've been so spoiled by the DDI character builder that a lot of player specific 3pp crunch has been largely "invisible" to them. If something is not in the DDI character builder, they will not use it at all.

 

[Crothian]

what exactly would you like to see from third-party publishers?

I don't know. Back in 3e days I didn't know I wanted Goodman games to give the DCC line or Necromancer to do their great modules. I didn't know I wanted Green Ronin to do those great historical books as well as give me the greatest Super Hero game. I'm looking for the publishers to give me something I don't yet know I want.

 

[Obryn]

I've said it before, and it may be a pipe-dream, but I like non-standard, non-generic settings.

My favorite purchases under the OGL/d20 STL were settings and supplements for those settings. While I have no use for generic character crunch, I love character crunch for new settings that fit in with a setting's themes.

I have zero use for generic player-oriented crunch. (No new classes, Paragon Paths, feats, or races that aren't designed for a specific new third-party setting.) DM-oriented crunch is dandy, but you have to convince me it's giving me something more - or something better - than I'm getting from WotC. This means reasonably solid mechanics, unique flavors, and fresh perspectives. I don't have any use for 100 poorly-made monsters, or 100 more monsters which offer me nothing more interesting than I've already gotten from WotC.

I like modules, so long as I have a reason to run them. If I'm getting no better than I'm getting from WotC, odds are I'll just stick with the stuff I'm getting from WotC. I also buy them on an as-needed basis; if I don't need one, I won't buy one.


For illustration, my favorite stuff I bought under the OGL/d20 STL were...

* Wilderlands Box Set (+ several supplements for it, one of which is a Least Favorite)
* Arcana Unearthed/Evolved (most of the product line for both, one of which is a Least Favorite)
* Monte Cook's Chaositech (DM crunch with awesome and unique flavor)
* Black Company Campaign Setting
* Testament
* A few DCC's.
* Tome of Horrors

My least favorite, least-used stuff I bought under OGL/d20 STL were...

- Complete Book of Eldritch Might
- Arcana Evolved Spell Treasury (although it was part of the above, it also broke many things)
- Wilderlands Player's Guide (reprinted information, and shoddy mechanics)
- Pretty much all non-Tome-of-Horrors 3rd-party monster books, including Creature Catalogs.

Everything else was pretty middling stuff that I may have enjoyed but which I never used. I would be unlikely to buy more stuff in this category, either - WotC is doing a better job of giving me stuff I want this edition than it was last time around.

So yeah. Basically, I want something I'm not already getting from WotC. But it also has to be high-caliber, with solid mechanics.

-O

 

[Henrix]

I'd be interested in adventures that aren't like WotCs - i.e. not just dungeon crawls.

(Nothing wrong with a good crawl, but a little variation is fine.)

 

[Mistwell]

Adventures.

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

Encounters! 4e encounters rely on terrain, hazards, and encounter groups. Strong encounters can be hard to do off the cuff. Dungeon Delve was great but something with even more generic, yet adaptable encouters would be great- an urban ambush, or some quick lairs, etc, scaled for different levels, that DM's could not only drop in anywhere but learn from (that last part means they need to be great stuff).