"THIS does only 1d4 damage?!"

[Malin Genie]

GuardianLurker

I like your 'top-down' system explanation.

It works most easily for a drawn-out fight between two swordsmen, but with some DM Creativity (TM) I can see it working well even for things like dragon breath

The force of the flame blows you clear. You tumble, smoking and bruised, and regain your feet, a little winded but ready to take the fight back to the dragon.

or

The force of the flame slams you backward. Your clothes smoking, your head reels for a few moments as you wince from the shock and heat. Your muscles twitch a little in protest, and you don't know if you would be able to get out of the way of the next one.

or

the flames catch you and you scream, involuntarily drawing some of the inferno into your lungs. Although you fall flat and the rest of the flame washes over you, you are badly burnt and barely able to draw breath. You lapse into unconsciousness and your organs begin to coagulate.

Having said that I have no idea how, even with DM Creativity (TM) to explain a Cure Light Wounds healing the multi-organ trauma caused by a sword-blow at low hit points while being only mildly refreshing to someoneat mid hit-points (although the anomaly isn't restricted to Cure spells, it goes for any healing.)

 

[Tom Cashel]

As my wife waited for me to gather my gear at the fencing club the other day, she wandered to the front where we sell archaic model swords and armor stuff. She asked about this blade and that blade, short sword vs. long sword, and then picked up a dagger and asked with incredulity, "This does only 1d4 damage?!"

No...it will puncture your organs, spill out your guts, make you bleed profusely, and probably kill you.

Because a real dagger has nothing to do with D&D. The map is not the territory. Your wife should watch Mazes & Monsters to learn the terrible cost (as dramatized by Tom Hanks) of blurring the line between fantasy and reality.

 

[Darkness]

I mean Tyson would bleed as much as I would...

He might even bleed more than you if some of his muscle mass was developed with the help of certain steroids.

 

[Vaxalon]

...I have no idea how, even with DM Creativity (TM) to explain a Cure Light Wounds healing the multi-organ trauma caused by a sword-blow at low hit points while being only mildly refreshing to someoneat mid hit-points (although the anomaly isn't restricted to Cure spells, it goes for any healing.)

The anomaly is no problem for natural healing, as it scales with hit dice.

Here's my take on hit points:

It is as if there were a book somewhere, a cosmic book, into which the stories of the universe were being written... but they are only stories of triumph. When you accomplish something, whether for good or evil, your story is written into the book. The author of that book likes his characters, and the more he writes in it about them, the more he wants them to stick around, so he gives them a certain amount of 'plot immunity' that takes the form of an infusion of positive energy. This positive energy allows the character to avoid damage.

Cure spells refill this energy.

 

[GuardianLurker]

GuardianLurker

I like your 'top-down' system explanation.

Thanks.

Having said that I have no idea how, even with DM Creativity (TM) to explain a Cure Light Wounds healing the multi-organ trauma caused by a sword-blow at low hit points while being only mildly refreshing to someoneat mid hit-points (although the anomaly isn't restricted to Cure spells, it goes for any healing.)

Yeah, it's problematic, I'll admit. It gets a little easier, however, if you divorce the game mechanics from the healing/curing spell titles and affects.

What's a light wound? A medium wound? (and so on up the scale) Obviously, there's a degree of relativity in the abstract hit point system, but it's fairly easy to determine that there are absolutes as well. Spraining your ankle is probably a light wound, for instance. While breaking your arm in two so severely that the bones have poked through the skin on your arm is probably a critical wound.

Unhappily the abstract hit point system does a very poor job (OK, it doesn't do it at all) of accounting for this kind of damage. About the only way to account for it is either to switch damage systems, or through GM fiat (which requires trusting players). The GM fiat route also means that you'll occasionally have low-level characters (or high-level characters with what would otherwise be light-hp wounds) that require high level healing spells. You can even see traces of this in the Wither spell, which IIRC doesn't do HP damage, but does render a limb useless.

The Healing spells, in this system, aren't strictly a "bottom-up" system, but spread their effect over the entire HP "stack".
Mechanically, translating the DnD spells to the Champions system, here's how I would see them :
Cure Minor : END repair only
Cure Light : Stated END repair, and a smaller amount of STUN, maybe a point of BODY in rare cases.
Cure Medium/Serious/Critical : Stated END repair, maybe half that in STUN, and a quarter in BODY. (Note that for Cure Crit, this works out to be roughly 2d8 body [after accounting for bonuses], which is a hefty healing spell for Hero.)
Heal, of course, is obvious.

What it basically boils down to is that the HP system is (as others have pointed out) a very abstract one. Trying to interject any degree of realism is, unfortuneately, nigh impossible to do within it.

This leaves you with few options. You can :
1) Completely accept HP as it stands, and forget about "realistic" combat. (Not a bad option if you play the standard "heroic" game.)
2) Impose some realism via GM fiat, and accept that there will be occassional mismatches.
3) Adapt a different combat system to DnD (The HERO system seems to strike the best detailed results/simple rules balance, I've seen, IMO.)
4) Switch to another rules system entirely, either towards the more detailed, "realistic", simulationist end (Rolemaster, HERO, etc.), or towards the more abstract, narrative end (WoD, Blue Planet, etc.).

 

[Henry]

Ah, deary, deary me.

Anything directly relevant that I would say has already been said, save one very important thing, which I have said on numerous occasions before (and which I am pretty sure is a paraphrased version of one of hong's laws):

Trying to precisely define the nature of hp is a task bound not only for failure, but the beginning of an unstoppable vortex that will suck you inexorably into the depths of the purest and most horrible insanity.

Hong's Third Law: Thinking about Fantasy too hard is bad.

All of these horrible gashes and wounds you are describing are actually coup-de-grace results, or results where the target's hit points go to or below zero. Did Mike Tyson get stabbed in the back? Coup-de-grace, or a really nasty sneak attack. Get shot in the brain-pan? Coup-de-grace. It's too much to try and rationalize every point of damage as actual physical contact, save maybe breaking the skin.

Just keep repeating Hong's Third Law, and you'll eventually be all right.

P.S. - Did anyone every see Ryan Dancey's Forum over on www.gamingreport.com? It's about three months old now, but it had a thread called "hit points suck", by RYAN HIMSELF, that addressed the issue of the desire for a better system than hit points in d20. THe upshot is that, few systems are simpler, but that there is a great need for a system that is both simple and can accurately display cinematic wounds as well as mass bodily damage, such as that given by the elements.

 

[Trainz]

Did anyone every see Ryan Dancey's Forum over on www.gamingreport.com? It's about three months old now, but it had a thread called "hit points suck", by RYAN HIMSELF, that addressed the issue of the desire for a better system than hit points in d20. THe upshot is that, few systems are simpler, but that there is a great need for a system that is both simple and can accurately display cinematic wounds as well as mass bodily damage, such as that given by the elements.

i.e. GURPS. But I don't like GURPS, I like D&D.

I don't have a problem with the HP system at all. I like it a lot.

Everytime a monster hits a PC, it *IS* a wound, and I describe the it. If an orc hits a first level fighter for 8 damage, I say "the axe hits you straight in the chest and blood starts pouring out...". If the same orc hits a 15th level fighter for 8 damage I say "the axe swings at your leg and you almost retreive it in time... it slices open the surface of your thigh and you clench your teeth at the sharp pain, thinking about what they say about paper cuts...".

A hit in my games ALWAYS wounds, but the gravity of the wound depends on the fraction of hit points you lost. A 1st level dude would possibly be killed by a single arrow, but Boromir kept hacking away with 2 arrows stuck deeply in his chest. The third one brought him down.

I really like the idea of the heroic high level fighter panting and clenching his teeth while looking at the bodies of his slain foes, trickles of blood pouring from a good dozen places on his body (legs, arms, chest, elbow, cheek...). In fact such a picture has been drawn and painted by more than one fantasy artist.

Brilliant.

 

[Starglim]

Wait, so let me get this straight. When you lose hit points, you are losing some dodge, some luck and some armor strength. When a heal spell is cast on me (or when I sleep at night) I am gaining back dodge ability? Luck? Sleep heals my armor?

Come on now...

Healing spells partly restore, and partly bolster, the divine favour that keeps you from harm.

 

[swrushing]

How do you explain to a new player that a dagger injury could kill a low-level "common" person with one blow, but barely harm an adventuring hero?

Easy. First point out that against a "helpless" person the dagger could kill in one blow even mighty heroes. That quickly turns into a fort save instead of hit point damage using the coup de grace rules.

Then point out that when they are not helpless and are aware and fighting back, its much more difficult to kill "a hero" with any weapon than it is to kill " a commoner" because thats how it plays out in the stories and lit and films. Ask her "how frequently do we see "the star" or "noteable bad guy" go down as quick as a peon extra as compared to the star being a lot less likely to go down as easy?"

And why will armor prevent a character from being "hit" with a dice roll at all?

it doesn't prevent you from getting hit. it prevents you from getting HURT.

if all you need do is tag the other person, not "and get thru armor" thats a touch attack and it ignores AC bonuses from armor.

 

[Sejs]

Hit points are all about the Dude Factor, Mojo Points, and the Designated Hero Area.

Heros have Designated Hero Areas: places on their body where they can take what would otherwise be a grievous blow to a non-hero, and be 'cinema hurt' but otherwise unhindered.

The shoulder is a prime example of a Designated Hero Area. Across the cheek, and across the flat of the back are a couple more. Normal men die. Heroes get all banged up and look macho, thanks in part to their Designated Hero Areas.