Pathfinder 1E This is why pathfinder has been successful.

[Saint Mac]

I can only give an opinion. I've played all editions and now play Pathfinder. Why? 4E didn't work for me and 3.5 left behind. Not "feeling" 4e, I started playing Pathfinder. I like the ruleset (modified 3.5) but it was much more.

As stated in other posts, the PDFs, the focus on settings, and the quality. I truely think that their APs are worth their weight. The stories that you might want to play are well thought out and supported. Kingmaker was so much fun to run. So the focus on world or story and the quaility work speak for itself.

Now, I have to say, its hard not to blend the "ruleset" with all the supporting products that come out of Paizo when looking at "Why Pathfinder vs D&D". So I'm sure you'll get cross-over talk of support product. The PDFs, the worlds, APs Paizo offers are great. The community is VERY supportive as well. The company is focused and listens very well to its customers, I can ask a newbie question without worrying about feeling ashamed to ask. So there is an environment in the game community that is more open too. Very impressive.

 

[Water Bob]

Yeah, Paizo's APs are excellent resources even if you're not running a Pathfinder game. I run the Conan RPG. My campaign is a sandbox set in cold, bleak Cimmeria.

The Conan game is not about demihumans, high fantasy magic, and a different monster behind every door. That stuff is fun, but it's not "Conan".

Still, I was able to find an AP that suited my needs and provided lots of stuff that I can convert and use for my special-needs game. It's not every D&D adventure that readily lends itself to the Conan universe--in fact, that stuff is hard to find. But, the Kingmaker AP fits the bill. It's easy to turn kobolds and bandits into rival Cimmerian clans (or even Vanir, Aesir, Picts, or Hyperboreans), and there's lots of good ideas and situations in the APs that will fit in the Swords & Sorcery universe of Conan.

Since I don't play Pathfinder, I've never really read an AP before. But, damn! That's some good writing! Paizo puts out some good stuff! (Except the Pathfinder art--can't stand that campy, silly stuff--which is what turned me away from Pathfinder in the first place).

The Kingmaker AP is a real resource, adapted to a lot of campaigns or fantastic just the way it is.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'd have said - and I must make a thread about it at some point - that Pathfinder's APs, and especially Kingmaker are excellent resources especially if you're not running a Pathfinder game. And Kingmaker (the only AP I own) is a poor one if you are. It seriously exposes the weaknesses of the system and the caster/non-caster split. If you are working on a 12-mile hex grid, with one scripted encounter per hex and occasionally one random one - and are being encouraged to explore the hexes - the 15 minute adventuring day is strongly encouraged, and the vancian casters walk over everything. And that's without getting into the tedium of the domain management rules. Or Kingmaker's topography in which the rivers flow away from the plains and into the hills.

Plenty of good ideas to loot. But not something I'd ever choose to run with PF although it works well (ironically) with 4e.

 

[Remus Lupin]

I'd have said - and I must make a thread about it at some point - that Pathfinder's APs, and especially Kingmaker are excellent resources especially if you're not running a Pathfinder game. And Kingmaker (the only AP I own) is a poor one if you are. It seriously exposes the weaknesses of the system and the caster/non-caster split. If you are working on a 12-mile hex grid, with one scripted encounter per hex and occasionally one random one - and are being encouraged to explore the hexes - the 15 minute adventuring day is strongly encouraged, and the vancian casters walk over everything. And that's without getting into the tedium of the domain management rules. Or Kingmaker's topography in which the rivers flow away from the plains and into the hills.

Plenty of good ideas to loot. But not something I'd ever choose to run with PF although it works well (ironically) with 4e.

This is interesting to me, since I'm planning to run Kingmaker in the near future. Any advice/strategy about how to avoid these problems? I'm interested in this being a role-play long term thinking campaign, not a "let me min-max my character to walk all over the challenges" kind of campaign.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This is interesting to me, since I'm planning to run Kingmaker in the near future. Any advice/strategy about how to avoid these problems? I'm interested in this being a role-play long term thinking campaign, not a "let me min-max my character to walk all over the challenges" kind of campaign.

Fixing most of Pathfinder's problems for the first three modules and much of the fourth is very easy IMO. A simple house rule that wizards only recover spells after 8 hours with a library or lab (give Oleg's a small shrine and a couple of books for 1st level spells), clerics with a temple, and druids with a grove. Which means that instead of just sleeping for 8 hours to recharge the spellcasters will have to slog back thirty miles. That'll make spell use a seriously strategic resource until you get to scry-and-fry levels.

Fixing from the fourth module onwards I think needs a level restriction.

Spoiler

The fourth module (9th level or so) starts with an attack on the kingdom. The PCs get a few hours warning and the module then railroads them into hanging back at the threatened town. And presents six trolls as a realistic threat to the PCs - with the army they are with being lead by someone with a will save of +3. The PCs have a few hours to prepare for the attack.

The rest of module 4 would be a great adventure - at level 6 or so.

Spoiler

Destabilise a hostile realm with a feuding noble family and take over.

Would be a nice adventure if levelled down a little rather than the egg-sledgehammer game of high level casters it is (most of the nobles being casters). Or would be excellent if no one's gone for a wizard, cleric, or druid. Module 5 has the problem that casters can take out armies on open field - completely disrupting matters. And then there's the complete dicefest to start the module. It could work really well with a "let's not and say we did" attitude to the mechanics presented.

Oh, and the domain management rules would be better done by spreadsheet. Always a bad sign.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Just so you know, not everyone agrees with Neonchameleon on that.

It really has not been a problem in the Kingmaker campaign that I am running now - the PCs have been way too busy to have a 15 MAD, even without my adding, umm, problems to the mix. (And I do love adding problems to the mix.)

They try to do as much exploration as they can in a day, and a surprising number of days can pass with no combat at all. (

Spoiler

They even talked to the giant moonshiner.

)

*EDIT* Ummm spoiler, spoiler, spoiler spoiler! I had to do a bit of editing before hitting 'Submit'. I think that means that I am having fun, and want to tell you all about it.

Let us just say that they try to run through the major encounter areas with as little time spent dawdling as possible, even when it meant hauling of unconscious PCs. No deaths, yet, but a lot of folks driven to negatives, and my players are starting to really hate trolls. And bandits. And their neighbors. And anything with scales....

Different play styles, different GMing styles, etc.. But I have not had to limit spellcasters, and the party seems willing to adventure with most of their spells depleted.

The Auld Grump, they seem convinced that a green dragon will be showing up any day now....

 

[BryonD]

Just so you know, not everyone agrees with Neonchameleon on that.

It certainly isn't happening in my kingmaker game either.

I'd suggest that for anyone who is a fan of 3E/PF they consider the source of the comments. Which isn't meant to be critical of neonchameleon. I'm just saying that his views may be a very poor reflection of what actually happens for people who find the system overall runs smoothly for them.

I'd equally encourage you to strongly second-guess any advice I ever offer on running a good 4E game by the exact same reasoning......

 

[S'mon]

I haven't played Kingmaker, but high level wizards flying over the battlefield fireballing everything was always very common in the 3e games I played, and made low-magic armies useless.

 

[MerricB]

I'd also say a lot has to do with Lovecraftian horror being a niche appeal, a niche significantly smaller than D&D-style fantasy role playing.

Although this is somewhat true, Chaosium almost destroyed themselves with their venture in to the CCG market. Since then, they've just limped along.

Cheers!

 

[Crothian]

I haven't played Kingmaker, but high level wizards flying over the battlefield fireballing everything was always very common in the 3e games I played, and made low-magic armies useless.

In a world of magic a low magic army that can't deal with a flying wizard is useless and thus wouldn't exist. In these worlds they have been fighting wars with magic for thousands of years. Both sides would have magic and anti magic capabilities.