Those groups where no one ever dies

[Spatula]

One of the problems here, I think, is the expectation that every encounter will result in combat.

I concur.

 

[Rackhir]

It is perfectly possible to have a campaign with large numbers of character deaths and still have an entertaining fun campaign with character development. Hasn't anyone read (contacts) Temple of Elemental Evil 2 - No Relationship to the Module or the Liberation of Tenh? (same link)

I understand the problem of character deaths for continuing campaigns, especially where there is a long involved plot thread. However, if neither the DM nor the players can come up with a way to continue the story if a single PC dies, then perhaps they're not as creative as they think they are.

Look at PC's campaign. There haven't been a lot of character deaths, but plenty of people have moved away. Which is pretty much the same thing. Yet, somehow he has kept a campaign running for years with everyone seems to think is one of the most entertaining and creative around.

It's not the job of the DM to try and kill characters, but neither is it the DM's job to make sure nobody gets hurt. If there is no real danger then there is no real heroisim. Without the possibility of character death, you might as well be watching a care bear's movie.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Without the possibility of character death, you might as well be watching a care bear's movie.

Or just playing a game where everyone at the table is enjoying their own BAD WRONG FUN as has been stated multiple times on this Thread (having read every post in the thread).

Personally, I like it when my character can be killed. I like the pulse pounding fear and the shadow of death lingers over some encounters. It's exciting to me.

But some people, it would appear, find other things about D&D, and RPGs in general, that appeals to them beyond (and, sometimes, in spite of) the lingering Spectre of Death. I applaud them and wouldn't mind join in their games.

Edit: deleted confrontational stuff that doesn't really add to the Thread.

 

[Aristotle]

I ran a campaign in White Wolf with very few character deaths, and a campaign in Shadowrun with none. I read that little chapter in a book for one system or another that goes on about making sure that when a character dies it means something to the campaign and isn't pointless or otherwise silly. I lived by that for a while ... and a couple of my players would get on my case about 'pulling punches'.

So when I started running D&D I spelled it out. I would run things in an impartial way. I would run encounters that were of an appropriate level for the part. And we would let the dice play it out. I've had character deaths ... and the same players who scolded me for pulling punches have since given me amazing guilt trips for killing their beloved characters.

It doesn't appear that I can win.

 

[HeavyG]

Reward with no risk isn't very rewarding.

But the risk of losing your character isn't the only possible risk.

In Exalted, it is pretty easy to make a mistake and die. Also, in that game, there is no way of bringing someone back from the dead. Since I wanted to run games with long term characters with much character development, I came up with a house rule to make that possible. I also use it for character-oriented D&D games.

Basically, PCs and some important NPCs benefit from a limited script immunity. That is, they will not die unless it's 1) dramatically appropriate and wanted by the player or 2) they purposefully do suicidal stuff and get their immunity revoked. If there comes a time where the dice indicate a PC's death, something will happen to save the character's life, but a significant penalty that is hard to overcome will replace the character's death. For instance, a character might get a limb lopped off, or their favorite magical sword sundered or some stuff like that. Basically, it has to hurt, but you still can play your character.

Thus, there is risk, but no chance of destroying all the work a player (and the DM !) put into a character.

That said, we also play dungeon crawl type campaigns and in those, we usually lose 1-2 PCs per adventure.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Raven Crowking, I think your last post is spot-on. What I'm arguing against, to use your terminology, is the philosophy of using "instant kill monsters" as "real encounters" occasionally, to promote believability, as favored (it seemed to me,) by some in this thread. Believability can be reinforced through "flavor encounters" without the need to risk a TPK.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Hitokiri]

Well, I can't say that never giving the players an encounter that they can't beat through combat is ideal. I understand the reasoning behind such a stance, but at the same time I want my players to a) use their heads when they approach a battle and b) realize they do not exist in a vacuum in the world. Now, hints can and should be dropped to spur the PC's towards the right decision. For example, let us say my group fought a dragon a few seesions back, and it came close to killing several party members. Now, travelling through the mountains, they spot another dragon winging it high overhead, and estimate it to be at least twice the size of the one they face earlier. Any reasonable person will be able to come to the conclusion that if something half the size of what we are looking at almost wiped us out, then the thing flying overhead (larger, presumably stronger) should be avoided. Likewise, a group of low level PC's who have just had a tussle with goblins, and are looking for a place to rest, should be going into high alert and be hiding if they find tracks from a band of marauding ogres ("Well, something came through here recently, a group of something actually. Based on the fact that its foot is twice the size of yours and it has sunk significantly into the ground, you'd guess that whomever it was was quite a bit larger than you.")

Even when the clues are not immediately obvious, PCs should show caution. Are those tracks above ogres? giants? what type of giant? This is where those fun skills like wilderness lore (track), hide, and move silently become important. If the parties rouge comes back and tells the party that what they thought were orges (something they have fought and could probably handle) are actually much larger humanoids that are currently playing catch with small boulders, then I would hope my players are smart enough to proceed VERY cautiously (leaving theselves an out if they decide to attack) or even retreat.

Now, say using a 20th level kobold fighter against a group of low level characters I would vehemently argue against. Unless they see some fancy swordwork indicating his prowess, there is no way for either the players or PCs to guage the power of such an enemy, and I would deem this a broken encounter.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It is perfectly possible to have a campaign with large numbers of character deaths and still have an entertaining fun campaign with character development.

Course it is. Thanks to spells like Raise Dead, Reincarnation, etc.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed