D&D 5E Those poor farmers!

[Celebrim]

The books bring up the PCs owning properties, give rules for aquiring them and rules for running a business so this rules better work and make sense instead of causing everyone who reads them without rose tinted glasses to shake his head in disbelieve and then ask how this is supposed to even work.

I agree. If you are going to print rules, they should work in and of themselves. They shouldn't be stubs or placeholders for something more complicated that won't work without the missing rules.

If you are going to bring up PC owned businesses, then make good rules for them. Otherwise, put something else in and save the rules on businesses for an economics/gear/strongholds focused supplement.

 

[Hussar]

I agree. If you are going to print rules, they should work in and of themselves. They shouldn't be stubs or placeholders for something more complicated that won't work without the missing rules.

If you are going to bring up PC owned businesses, then make good rules for them. Otherwise, put something else in and save the rules on businesses for an economics/gear/strongholds focused supplement.

But, that's the point. The rules do work fine for a PC owned business. That's not the issue. The issue at hand is that the rules for a PC owned business don't work very well for an NPC owned business. IOW, they aren't economic simulation rules, therefore, they're bad. Derren keeps arguing that if you don't have rules for every single eventuality, then the rules are crap.

 

[Hussar]

In the six months since I started playing D&D, this has been exactly my experience. If I don't know something or have a concern then I look for a solution in the books or online, and then come up with my own decision based on what I find. I've made a LOT of mistakes, but I've learned enough from them that I am further ahead than if everything had been laid out for me. I've found that making fast decisions is a cruicial skill for a DM, and the only way to improve is to practice (and inevitably screw up from time to time).

[MENTION=6775925]Jaelommiss[/MENTION]

You sir (and I'm making an assumption there, ma'am if it's appropriate) are my HERO (INE). If you've learned that in six months of DMing, you are going to be a freaking AWESOME DM.

There are DM's that have DM'ed for decades that haven't learned that.

 

[Derren]

But, that's the point. The rules do work fine for a PC owned business. That's not the issue. The issue at hand is that the rules for a PC owned business don't work very well for an NPC owned business. IOW, they aren't economic simulation rules, therefore, they're bad. Derren keeps arguing that if you don't have rules for every single eventuality, then the rules are crap.

We have different ideas of "work fine". Rules which make absolutely no difference between a farm and a trade post, both suggested downtime "activities" btw, don't work fine in my eyes.

 

[Ahrimon]

We have different ideas of "work fine". Rules which make absolutely no difference between a farm and a trade post, both suggested downtime "activities" btw, don't work fine in my eyes.

As a PC centric rule meant to deal with a PC owned business that is part time, they work well enough for me. I prefer a little more dungeons and dragons in my DnD than running a business. For NPC's, if it really matters you could use it as an idea spark or simply forget it all and do what is best for your games world.

It occurred to me that some resistance to these rules could be that some players like control over every aspect of their character since it is their character. So when they invest their gold into something they want to know how it's going to work. But this is one of those situations where it's to tied to the DMs side of things. You could set up a mega farm, but if the DM decides his campaign is suddenly going through a drought, then it doesn't matter how well you roll, you're going to loose money. By investing in these things you are investing into the shared world. For some, that's more control over their character than they're willing to let go of. Others will happily take the plunge into their game.

 

[Hussar]

We have different ideas of "work fine". Rules which make absolutely no difference between a farm and a trade post, both suggested downtime "activities" btw, don't work fine in my eyes.

Why? What difference does it need? You get a semi-random generator of income or loss that functions for pretty much any sort of downtime activity. How much detail do you need?

I guess my question would be, what would you need to have rules that "work fine"?

 

[Derren]

I guess my question would be, what would you need to have rules that "work fine"?

At the very least (and I really mean least, there is lot of room upwards) a few sentences of advice and guides (you know, those things which are supposed to be in a DMG) about each available "stronghold" type about how to add it to a campaign with different levels of spotlight and a individual modifier for the run business background (although it would be better to divorce strongholds from the run business downtime activity and give them their own mechanics). I would gladly give up some magic item pictures for that.
If WotC can't even provide that minimum amount of support for strongholds then, as [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] said, they should not have put them into the book in the first place.

And please don't come with a "Rulings, not Rules" or "Smart DMs don't need it" type of answer as in that case you do not need the DMG at all as "smart DMs" can come up with everything in it on their own. But people buy the book to have work done for them by people who, supposedly, spend a lot of thought about it.
Also I am pretty sure many people would be upset if the magic item section would only consist out of a list of names without any pictures or descriptions. Would you be?

 

[Uchawi]

60% of the time, famers make money all the time.

 

[weldon]

We have different ideas of "work fine". Rules which make absolutely no difference between a farm and a trade post, both suggested downtime "activities" btw, don't work fine in my eyes.

I think we have different ideas of how a downtime activity is run. In my mind, the downtime activity rules are there so you can handwave away whole categories of endeavors that don't require in-character interaction between the PCs and the DM and are mostly outside the story. It seems to me that resolving downtime activities should take about the same amount of time at the table as figuring out how much gold and how many days it took the wizard to make a potion. My personal opinion is that options like carousing (and maybe running a business) are there so that every player at the table can say they are doing something as you go around to check on how they intend to use their downtime.

At that level of abstraction, I'm totally fine with a small trading post and a small farm both generating about the same amount of gold.

Beyond downtime activities, I'm also interested in how PC choices could lead to adventures (You need to get a royal charter from the King before you build that stronghold. The local thieves guild has taken an interest in your trading post. Your farm is reporting that mutilated livestock are being found in the southern hills. And so on).

I don't necessarily see the accuracy of the economic rules for running a business (especially as a downtime activity that doesn't really happen in-game) as very important.

 

[pemerton]

What kind of influence does an Abbey give you? What income if any? Do the PCs even own the Abbey or does it become property of the church? Do they get minor divine spellcasting for free?

Influence: advantage on checks for interaction with religious types.

Property: read a book on the history of religious orders and the relationship between church, nobility and property, then make decisions about your gameworld. I can recommend RI Moore, The War on Heresy.

Why not just print a list of names of magic items without art and description and let the "smart older generation" figure it out by themselves the same way it was done with strongholds?

Magic items have always had more description in D&D, and been closer to the heart of gameplay, than strongholds.

Also, it is quite feasible to have a game in which magic items are evocative names and nothing more: this is how HeroWars/Quest and other free descriptor systems handle them.

On the issue of downtime rules, I agree with [MENTION=18817]weldon[/MENTION] - they're for quick resolution of downtime not for detailed play. Simplicity is a virtue.