Thought Experiment - "Is your game a railroad" test

nedjer said:
In addition, it's very hard to break down these terms, e.g. PCs have visited all the other optional/ 'sandboxy' locations and are left with the last link in the underlying campaign. They can choose not go to the final location, but they''re basically on rails/ owned by then; unless presented with lots of choices within the location, allowing them to go off the rails while still on them.
That simply makes no sense at all from a "sandbox" perspective. Locations are, well ... locations. They are there, and you can go to them whenever.

It is pure nonsense to say that Milwaukee (or Glasgow, or wherever) is "the final location". There is no special, privileged time sequence to spacial coordinates.
 

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Stormonu, if you are breaking the informal rules of the game to "fix" it, then you are -- at that moment -- "railroading" your fellow participants.

(A third party might call a "fix" a "railroad" regardless of your table rules, but that should be moot unless you have lied to them about the rules before they signed on.)

If you are breaking the formal rules, then you are simply cheating.

You can count instances per 1000 hours of play ("millirails"?) if you get your kicks from such numbers.

The actually relevant question, though, is pretty straightforward.

If you are not invested in any particular outcome, then you have nothing to "fix" in the first place.
 
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That simply makes no sense at all from a "sandbox" perspective. Locations are, well ... locations. They are there, and you can go to them whenever.

It is pure nonsense to say that Milwaukee (or Glasgow, or wherever) is "the final location". There is no special, privileged time sequence to spacial coordinates.

Players get asked what they want and that usually includes a freeform campaign laced with a series of challenges. They can choose which challenges to hook into, they can devise their own challenges or they can choose to have no challenges.

Where they do pick up on or devise a challenge that's likely to involve a series of steps. They can take these in any order or not 'visit' them at all. However, sooner or later, completing challenges will involve going to the location/s where a challenge is completed. They have the option of doing whatever they like or just skipping the challenge, but if they want to forge the mighty warhammer of doom they've got to choose to go to the forge at some point.

A challenge needn't be tied to a particular or single location, but there ain't no forging of the warhammer without selecting and completing that 'final' step in some location. In addition, if the players have asked for 'special effects', such as hitting deadlines under pressure or countdowns, they've made a player choice on a level that supersedes simplistic definitions of 'railroading' v's 'sandbox'.
 

C) Make preparations for/wing the menace in the forest and leave the mountain dungeon for another time, if the players come back to it (Sandbox)
D) Wing the adventure in the forest and mentally advance the actions of the bad guys in the Mountain dungeon. If the PCs return later, that bad guy's plot will have advanced; if they never return, his plot is successful. The PCs may encounter some fallout from that.

That's what I'd do. But where the heck does it fall on the continuum?
 

D) Wing the adventure in the forest and mentally advance the actions of the bad guys in the Mountain dungeon. If the PCs return later, that bad guy's plot will have advanced; if they never return, his plot is successful. The PCs may encounter some fallout from that.

That's what I'd do. But where the heck does it fall on the continuum?

That's a Living World sandbox. It's a sandbox because player agency is not constrained by artificial or metagame barriers. The world lives apart from the PCs and may evolve depending on their choices and the efforts of the PCs(choosing to not go to the mountain has consequences in this case).
 

Players want to make a legendary magic item. Do you:

a) tell them it's a phenomenally expensive process that requires 144 spell components collected on a full moon across 7 continents.

b) caution them that neglecting their duties will probably mean that they won't get home in time to stop their womenfolk being burnt at the stake by a passing Witchfinder.

c) explain the first of the demanding but necessary steps required to research and prepare the item over weeks or months.

d) ask how they're going to set about making the item.

more propaganda than survey or humour :) The Conductor and Sheepworrier get ridiculed in contrast to the Freeform 'mentor' and the 'zen' Invisible GM. Polished versions as used in concept marketing go for the contrast, but insinuate rather than ridicule.

I concur, that the wording biases the reader.

Just calling the GM who advises his players of consequences a Sheepworrier.

It is the GMs job to give the players information. When players do unexpected things, or act contrarily to their stated goal, there's a lack of information (at the minimum, the GM has no clue what the PCs are trying to do).

I look at it as if the game environment allows me to convey information to the players, use it.

PCs investigating a murder and investigating the a dead end SHOULD find something that brings doubt of that persons guilt.

Wasting time on some side problem should bring word of growing problems with the main "quest", assuming they're not deep in the woods. In PCat's example, the PCs could spend considerable time in the woods, isolated, where they wouldn't recieve word.

So is a DM who mentions, "Hey, uh, while you guys are building up this fort, the bad guy is probably expanding his operations" a railroader? If you were sitting at PKitty's table and his mom/wife/animal walked in and said that, is she a railroader?

Having the DM mention "facts" not threats (threatening the PCs to get them to do stuff is a different thing) is technically influencing the party. Hopefully it is with the intent of helping the party pursue the party's goals (rather than the GM's goals).

The inverse extreme is the GM who is so tight-lipped, if the PCs don't think of it, or don't think to ask, he won't provide any information. One would think he has inward glee at the PCs stumblings and losing track of their own goals.


Here's one for your railroad test:

An NPC wants to capture the PCs (perhaps they broke a law). He sends people to capture them.

a) the resources sent will be escalated until the party is captured or dead

b) the resources will be low level or level appropriate as 1 encounter, the outcome is uncertain

c) the resources will be higher level than the party in anticipation of difficulty in capturing them. It is expected that the party will be captured, but it is possible they could get lucky

d) the resources will be carefully planned to counter the party and nearly ensure a capture


answer A is most certainly railroading. Answer B is a non-railroad, making the attempt a generic encounter. C & D get into whether it is appropriate for the NPC to have those resources. Clearly there is a bias get the desired outcome (for the NPC or for the GM?). GM Motive and NPC Means are potentially being misused.
 



That's a Living World sandbox. It's a sandbox because player agency is not constrained by artificial or metagame barriers. The world lives apart from the PCs and may evolve depending on their choices and the efforts of the PCs(choosing to not go to the mountain has consequences in this case).
Really? I consider myself one of the least sandboxy people around. How interesting.
 

nedjer said:
A challenge needn't be tied to a particular or single location, but there ain't no forging of the warhammer without selecting and completing that 'final' step in some location.
So what?

Once again, my mind reels trying to comprehend how some people -- considering the logic of the claims they make about games -- manage to get through real life without continually complaining that it's all "just a railroad"!

Maybe they don't ...
 

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