Thoughts on Bards?

[Gruns]

Hey, all...
New campaign starting, and it looks like I'm leaning toward playing a bard. Problem is, I just can't convince myself that this class would be 1)Useful, 2)Interesting or 3)FUN!
It does however seem to fit the group's needs. The group has 3 other PCs, as follows:
Half-Orc Barbarian
Human Druid
Halfling Outrider(eventually)

As we lack a rogue and an arcane caster, the bard semi-fills these roles, albeit weakly. I just don't see a whole lot of spellcasting power from bards to make me want to not just make a charismatic rogue. A simple Sorcerer may be even better, as he could act as the party face, and have some real spellcasting ability. The barbarian will take care of the locked doors and traps. The good part the bard does bring to the table is that with two and a half melee types, the bard song should be pretty effective. The problem is, I simply don't like the idea of a fruity guy prancing around with a rapier singing songs while hacking up orcs...

So someone out there who's played one (or with one), tell my why bards don't suck! Or should I just go Rogue? Sorcerer? Dwarven Fighter?

Thanks!
Gruns

 

[diaglo]

to quote Tom Jackson from the WotC boards. "Bards Suck"

 

[MonsterMash]

Are you starting from 1st level? If so I think I'd go with the Bard for all that its an awkward class, if you are starting at 2+ I'd want to go cross classed Sorceror/Rogue

Bard like Cleric can be a tricky class to play and the Bard is nowhere near as powerful as the Cleric.

 

[Klaus]

Bards don't suck. You can quote me on that!

With a decent Int and being human, you'll have something along the lines of 9 maxed skills, and that's a lot! With maxed Listen and the feat Hear the Unseen (CAdv) you can use Listen to pinpoint invisible foes, and that's just cool!

With a high Charisma, you will have a nice spellcasting selection (much more subtle than the druid's), you will be able to influence NPCs left and right. And with the feat Force of Personality (CAdv) you can add Charisma bonus to your Will saves instead of Wisdom.

With a decent Dex and a bow, you can be a useful archer (specially with a Bow of Songs, once again from CAdv, which allows you to add Cha to attack and damage a few times per day).

As for "fruity guy prancing around with a rapier singing songs while hacking up orcs...", picture an archer, reciting epic poems about the great warriors from whom he descends (Perform [oratory]), all the while raining feathery doom upon his foes.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

I love bards. They've got style. Here's some good advice on bardic casters:

Cayzle's Screed 1
Cayzle's Screed 2
Cayzle on multiclassing bards
Cayzle on fighting bards

The Eberron Campaign Setting has several good feats for bards; the Draconomicon has a good PrC for 'em called the Dragonsinger; Complete Warrior has the Warchanter, a great PrC for warrior-bards; Complete (Arcane I think) has the Sublime Chord and the Seeker of the Song, for bards specializing in either magic or bardic music; Complete Adventurer has the Fochlucan Lyrist, for bard/rogue/druids, as well as some nifty alternate rules for masterwork instruments.

Here are WotC's Character Optimization forums. Be warned, though; they can be very pissy if you suggest that some of their builds are...less than legal.

 

[Henry]

The problem is, I simply don't like the idea of a fruity guy prancing around with a rapier singing songs while hacking up orcs...

That's like saying all fighters use swords, or all clerics are pacifistic...

Bards conceptually can take many forms:

*Perform does not require an instrument (singing or oration)
*Bards can carry any simple weapon, from morningstars to clubs to spears. A Bard with a spear and darts or javelins is both effective in combat and can cut an atypical image for the bard.
*If singing or using oration, a bard can fight and inspire at the same time.
*Silent Image and Grease are some rather effective spells in combat and general utility.
*If you pick CUre Light wounds, you're a backup healer for the Druid. What happens if the Druid gets knocked unconscious? CLW means there's a second healer to keep people on their feet, even if you're not the primary.

The number of skill points they get is second to the rogue. It sounds like NO ONE in your party can talk their way out of a jam, so I'd build up Bluff and Diplomacy, at least to about 1/2 to 2/3 of the max you can put into it; your CHA will help the rest of the way.

A Bard is not better than any other class, but it can still be fun and hold his own. Just look at ALL of the traits he gets, and think of other archetypes you can create with them -- don't get stuck on the "foppish dandies in their green tights singing minstrel tunes" image some people have of the class.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Also, if you've got Races of the Wild, consider playing a Killoren bard. Because you're fey, you can take the Charming the Arrow feat.

EDIT: Of course, sometimes playing a prancing minstrel can be fun

 

[Romnipotent]

Bards need a Combat Style...
Medic; Heal check as a free action, you can determine the health of another PC or Foe, (know HP left)... DC 15+HD maybe... etc
Fighter: +1 to attack and damage with a weapon every 4 levels
Commander etc...

And OR "Regional Favoured Knowledges" where you get an unnamed bonus to any knowledge check relating to a topic like... archery, or mapping, maybe even festival games

 

[JoeBlank]

Thanks for the links, John Q. I keep getting tempted to play a bard. My first 3.0 character was a bard, but I lost him a TPK at 2d level, and have not had the opportunity to play one again. The 3.5 changes seem to have corrected many of the problems with the class. In fact, they actually took into account many of the complaints from Tom Jackson's "Bards Suck" thread at WotC.

 

[johndaw16]

Well I've played a bard all the way up to lvl 13. And I got to say they're always useful, interesting, and fun but they sure aren't as powerful as some of the other classes. But I'd still recommend playing one as long as your campaign isn't total hack and slash. Bards really excel at non-combat roleplay situations. And if you have the Complete Arcane the prestige classes in there will help out your bards spellcasting a lot, personally I prefer the Sublime Chord.