Thoughts on Book of the Righteous
- Thread starter Gothmog
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Crothian said:
This hits on something I was talking to some friends about at Gen Con, and something I hope to develop further on the Tree of Life site (and perhaps in further publications, Green Ronin willing... though after I delivered 3 times more book than they asked me to, it may be a while before they trust me with a pub again...
). I love this kind of thing -- having good or neutral clerics who represent ideas that are typically shown in fantasy to be "evil."The disease example was one of the ones we were discussing (actually, it was plague). The problem with the "one alignment shift" rule for clerics is that it makes it impossible to do something that was actually fairly common in real-life: have a good-hearted priest who lives to appease the evil, nasty god and protect his people from its wrath. So, you can't have the CE goddess of plague, famine and general evilness, and have her LG clergy who go from town to town teaching people the proper sacrifices to make, the proper prayers to say, etc. to turn the eye of the evil god they represent away from the village. In real life, this sort of thing happened. Being an attendant at an altar of a scary, nasty god did not mean you were, yourself, scary and nasty. So, I hope through the Heretic feat and some other stuff, we can start making some good priests of evil gods.
Fantastic! That's exactly what I'd hoped. I hope you'll come by the Green Ronin boards and tell us all how it works out when you do start incorporating stuff. I've found the boards to be an excellent spot for idea-swapping.
Terrific. You've hit upon one of my favorite PrCs (though the hierophant and the hawk are up there too). I think I particularly love the Reborn (and the whole church of Mormekar) after-the-fact because James Ryman's art in that section is just so darn good. The first time I saw his work I was very happy; then Hal told me I was just looking at concept sketches and the pieces were going to get even better.
Ryman's little touch of having the obediant brother punching one of the ghouls swarming him -- almost as an afterthought -- gets me every time.So, are you going to take an existing character who's been evil and make him reborn, or start out a character at higher levels who already has the PrC?
AJL
Torillan
First Post
I haven't even finished reading it yet, but this book is no doubt the best game book I've ever bought. The approach that Aaron and Green Ronin took towards it was EXACTLY what I was looking for. I thought about purchasing Dieties & Demigods, but a friend told me to wait for BoTR. Glad I did!!
As to the idea of stats for the gods, I have to agree with Aaron's approach. I never have the gods directly influence mortals, instead relying on their many servants. This works well at most levels, as some servants are lower level, while some can be quite powerful (archangels and such).
This book came at the right time, as I am finishing up my homebrew world. I left out mythology on purpose, anticipating the arrival of BoTR. I'll probably just drop everything in whole cloth, with a few minor tweaks here and there. I'm still working out how to drop in some of the gods in an Oriental culture...
Anyhoo, this book is definitely worth $40. I'm looking forward to seeing stuff on the Tree of Life site, and posting my own items. Well done, Aaron & GR!!!!
As to the idea of stats for the gods, I have to agree with Aaron's approach. I never have the gods directly influence mortals, instead relying on their many servants. This works well at most levels, as some servants are lower level, while some can be quite powerful (archangels and such).
This book came at the right time, as I am finishing up my homebrew world. I left out mythology on purpose, anticipating the arrival of BoTR. I'll probably just drop everything in whole cloth, with a few minor tweaks here and there. I'm still working out how to drop in some of the gods in an Oriental culture...
Anyhoo, this book is definitely worth $40. I'm looking forward to seeing stuff on the Tree of Life site, and posting my own items. Well done, Aaron & GR!!!!
Gothmog
First Post
Yep Aaron, I have found BoTR very useful in my homebrew. Although I already have a detailed cosmology and mythology in place, the church structure and doctrine for the various religions have been very useful to me, not to mention I LOVE the Holy Warrior class. One question about the Holy Warrior though- have you ever thought about making the class available to ANY alignment and combination of domains? I think it would be interesting to have Holy Warriors of the Plaguelord, the god of dreams, etc. Basically, Holy Warriors of any alignment or god- after all, every religion needs its champions.
Also, something else that would be cool to see in the future would be specific servitor creatures for each deity, along the lines of what a character with Summon Planar Ally spells might call on for each god. I have started working on this for my own world, but a web enhancement or book that contained that kind of info would be a great idea.
Also, something else that would be cool to see in the future would be specific servitor creatures for each deity, along the lines of what a character with Summon Planar Ally spells might call on for each god. I have started working on this for my own world, but a web enhancement or book that contained that kind of info would be a great idea.
Crothian
First Post
AaronLoeb said:
It's not going to be any time soon. I'm playing in two games and I really hope those last a while. Plus I just started running a game and it would be nice if that lasted longer then planned.
But when I make the reborn, I'm really going to have to talk to the DM. This is a class and a concept that really needs to be worked out with the DM so that my goals and the party goals can co exist.
We usually start at first level. So, my plan is to start with any old character. Then have the DM set up an NPC that is horrible evil the PCs keep hearing about or maybe even run into (but never fight). Then my character will die, and I'll switch to the evil NPC, except as a 1st level reborn.
This one just dropped through my mailbox.
I wasn't really very interested in the book's concept when I heard about it - but now I have it, I've changed my mind completely. We're talking a complete 180 here. Not only am I enjoying reading it immensely, it will be used in my new campaign starting in a couple of weeks.
I loved Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss, and I love the way that my two favourite monster books fit so snugly into this premade mythology.
And the size of this thing - it's a whopper!
Man, it's hard being impartial at times. But I have to say that Green Ronin are without doubt at the top of the league as far as I'm concerned. In an impartial, non-favouritism kind of way. They haven't managed to put a foot wrong yet (except for Chris Pramas' association with that pointless Chainmail thing....)
I wasn't really very interested in the book's concept when I heard about it - but now I have it, I've changed my mind completely. We're talking a complete 180 here. Not only am I enjoying reading it immensely, it will be used in my new campaign starting in a couple of weeks.
I loved Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss, and I love the way that my two favourite monster books fit so snugly into this premade mythology.
And the size of this thing - it's a whopper!
Man, it's hard being impartial at times. But I have to say that Green Ronin are without doubt at the top of the league as far as I'm concerned. In an impartial, non-favouritism kind of way. They haven't managed to put a foot wrong yet (except for Chris Pramas' association with that pointless Chainmail thing....)
Last edited:
baseballfury
First Post
Morrus said:
Yes, that's a great feature. I suspect the info on Gehenna prefigures Volume 3 of the Book of Fiends too.
I also love the way Mr. Loeb made the Goddess of the Hearth's so interesting. Very cool.
dreamthief
First Post
There's an excellent review of it on review site. Will check it out at the FLGS
Wow! Talk about an embarassment of riches! Everyone's saying such nice things!
To answer a few questions, and respond:
First off -- to Nightfall, Morrus and others -- thanks so much for the warm embrace of the book. I've been working on it in one form or another for about 10 years (and writing for the last year), so it's very rewarding to hear people are enjoying it; especially people who weren't interested in it (ala Morrus) or who are absolutely sold on other settings/cosmologies (ala Nightfall).
Gothmog -- yes, I agree wholeheartedly that the Holy Warrior could be tremendously useful for Neutrals and Evils. Here's why I didn't write it that way: the Gift of God could (perhaps even should) be, in my opinion, something else for those alignments. For instance, a lot of people are quite fond of the fact that the Blackguard gets sneak attack where a paladin gets cure disease. I haven't decided, but I think maybe an Unholy Warrior class (evil only) would have some personal abilities like sneak attack every few levels rather than the spell-like abilities Holy Warriors gain. For some reason, I also feel strongly that a neutral version should have something instead of the steed/animal companion and definitely shouldn't have turn or rebuke undead. I couldn't at this time say why I feel strongly about it, but I do. Point is, I think there can be significant differences between the good warrior set out in BotR and neutral and evil versions. Those differences bear some thinking. I wanted to do that thinking rather than provide an attempted "catch all" class in BotR, which was (after all) focused on ostensibly good gods. On top of that, the class is already a complex one based on variables (you get four powers of power-level x at 1st level and two of power-level y at 2nd, etc.); I think having to also write text explaining that the turn undead ability is rebuke undead if you're evil, would just add to the confusion potential.
Nevertheless, all that being said (and said with my usual uneconomical use of words!), I think it should be pretty easy for enterprising GMs the world over to create an evil version of the Holy Warrior before I get around to it. I look forward to seeing the ways it's done!
As for the celestial servants of each of the gods, that's what Tree of Life is for. More, Chris has announced an upcoming celestial-themed book. While all Green Ronin products of this sort maintain a "stand alone" status (it's annoying to have to own a $100 library of a company's products for the book you just bought to be useful and, as ListLurker observes, Green Ronin loves you), I bet Chris will have some compatibility with BotR built in.
And I reckon the 3rd fiends book will have a few happy surprises for folks who now know the BotR cosmology. I worked extensively with Chris on all the mentions of Gehenna in BotR. He and I were both unhappy with the existing bland representations of the NE realm as "a battleground between hell and the abyss populated by mercenaries." That's so dull! I think people will really enjoy what GR is up to for the daemons in book 3.
Anyway, again, thanks! And as always, I'm happy to answer questions.
AJL
To answer a few questions, and respond:
First off -- to Nightfall, Morrus and others -- thanks so much for the warm embrace of the book. I've been working on it in one form or another for about 10 years (and writing for the last year), so it's very rewarding to hear people are enjoying it; especially people who weren't interested in it (ala Morrus) or who are absolutely sold on other settings/cosmologies (ala Nightfall).
Gothmog -- yes, I agree wholeheartedly that the Holy Warrior could be tremendously useful for Neutrals and Evils. Here's why I didn't write it that way: the Gift of God could (perhaps even should) be, in my opinion, something else for those alignments. For instance, a lot of people are quite fond of the fact that the Blackguard gets sneak attack where a paladin gets cure disease. I haven't decided, but I think maybe an Unholy Warrior class (evil only) would have some personal abilities like sneak attack every few levels rather than the spell-like abilities Holy Warriors gain. For some reason, I also feel strongly that a neutral version should have something instead of the steed/animal companion and definitely shouldn't have turn or rebuke undead. I couldn't at this time say why I feel strongly about it, but I do.
Point is, I think there can be significant differences between the good warrior set out in BotR and neutral and evil versions. Those differences bear some thinking. I wanted to do that thinking rather than provide an attempted "catch all" class in BotR, which was (after all) focused on ostensibly good gods. On top of that, the class is already a complex one based on variables (you get four powers of power-level x at 1st level and two of power-level y at 2nd, etc.); I think having to also write text explaining that the turn undead ability is rebuke undead if you're evil, would just add to the confusion potential. Nevertheless, all that being said (and said with my usual uneconomical use of words!), I think it should be pretty easy for enterprising GMs the world over to create an evil version of the Holy Warrior before I get around to it. I look forward to seeing the ways it's done!
As for the celestial servants of each of the gods, that's what Tree of Life is for. More, Chris has announced an upcoming celestial-themed book. While all Green Ronin products of this sort maintain a "stand alone" status (it's annoying to have to own a $100 library of a company's products for the book you just bought to be useful and, as ListLurker observes, Green Ronin loves you), I bet Chris will have some compatibility with BotR built in.
And I reckon the 3rd fiends book will have a few happy surprises for folks who now know the BotR cosmology. I worked extensively with Chris on all the mentions of Gehenna in BotR. He and I were both unhappy with the existing bland representations of the NE realm as "a battleground between hell and the abyss populated by mercenaries." That's so dull! I think people will really enjoy what GR is up to for the daemons in book 3.
Anyway, again, thanks! And as always, I'm happy to answer questions.
AJL
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