Thoughts on bringing back Weapon Speed in 5th ed

[HRSegovia]

I loved this aspect of initiative in 2nd ed and was sad to see it go. It's a simple element of realism (maybe not REAL but it felt like it), that adds just a touch of feeling like you're actually holding the weapon in your hand when rolling the die.

What are your thoughts on using something like this in 5th ed?

Weapon Speed
Weapons with the Light Property = 0
Normal Weapons = -1
Weapons with the Heavy Property = -2

EFFECTS OF SPEED FACTOR
- Initiative = Init - Weapon Speed
- Max Attacks Per Round (unmodified by feats or features) = Strength Mod - Weapon Speed

That may seem a little harsh until you consider by the time you are getting 4 attacks per round, you're level 20. At Level 20, you BETTER have your Strength Ability maxed out for a modifier of +5 (not hard to do). At +5, you can make use of a Longsword (Speed factor -1) and still benefit from all four attacks per round... but a giant Glaive, Great Axe, or Great Sword is going to still slow you (if at least by 1 attack).

Consider that weaker characters (like mages) shouldn't be using heavy weapons anyway so it's not an unfair advantage to stronger ones. But if a weaker one (such as a mage) only had a Strength Mod of 0, chances are, a Greataxe is going to be too heavy for him to use effectively. If he had a +3, then perhaps he can get a shot in even if he had 3 attacks per round, but that's it... 1 swing.

Thoughts?

 

[Dragongrief]

Definitely for a module rather than the base rules. I do like it more than the 2e rules, since it doesn't cause issues when switching weapons in combat.

A couple thoughts:
1) Max Attacks per Round should have a stated minimum of 1. Otherwise the mage in your example can never attack (Mod of 0 = 0 max attacks).
2) The Modifier used to determine max should be the attacking score mod - so Dex Mod for finesse weapons.

 

[HRSegovia]

Agreed

 

[ccooke]

I loved this aspect of initiative in 2nd ed and was sad to see it go. It's a simple element of realism (maybe not REAL but it felt like it), that adds just a touch of feeling like you're actually holding the weapon in your hand when rolling the die.

What are your thoughts on using something like this in 5th ed?

Weapon Speed
Weapons with the Light Property = 0
Normal Weapons = -1
Weapons with the Heavy Property = -2

EFFECTS OF SPEED FACTOR
- Initiative = Init - Weapon Speed
- Max Attacks Per Round (unmodified by feats or features) = Strength Mod - Weapon Speed

That may seem a little harsh until you consider by the time you are getting 4 attacks per round, you're level 20. At Level 20, you BETTER have your Strength Ability maxed out for a modifier of +5 (not hard to do). At +5, you can make use of a Longsword (Speed factor -1) and still benefit from all four attacks per round... but a giant Glaive, Great Axe, or Great Sword is going to still slow you (if at least by 1 attack).

Consider that weaker characters (like mages) shouldn't be using heavy weapons anyway so it's not an unfair advantage to stronger ones. But if a weaker one (such as a mage) only had a Strength Mod of 0, chances are, a Greataxe is going to be too heavy for him to use effectively. If he had a +3, then perhaps he can get a shot in even if he had 3 attacks per round, but that's it... 1 swing.

Thoughts?

There are big issues with weapon speed as an initiative modifier in a system which allows you to swap weapons mid-round. It also assumes that everything you can do in a round is a weapon... or forces you to come up with a huge table that gives you an initiative modifier for everything you can do in a round. Spellcasting, playing an instrument, etc

 

[Rune]

The only way weapon speeds (and, presumably also spellcasting speeds?) would make sense as initiative modifiers is if you re-introduced a declaration phase to each round. (Obviously, you'd also have to ditch cyclical initiative.). Then, if you have someone who wants (or needs) to change their action, they can do so at an initiative penalty.

 

[HRSegovia]

Yeah, I had this thread on the Wizards forum and it kinda took a sour turn there. After my initial post, several championed the cause and several opposed it. It started becoming so convoluted as to how it was possible and why it should come back or die that I left the thread. I made this one at the same time, not after, so I thought this one was dead, too. LOL

 

[the Jester]

Looks fairly reasonable for a rules module, except that we know that the game is already working to balance great weapons vs. sword and board vs. two weapon fighting, so losing an attack really, really hoses the great weapon wielders unfairly (IMHO).

Also, weapon speed is but one factor of many that really ought to factor into initiative if you're shooting for realism; we aren't including modifiers for reach (a glaive should certainly strike a dagger wielder first), for instance.

 

[GSHamster]

I don't see how it would work with cyclical initiative. So you'd have to ditch cyclical initiative to get weapon speed to work.

I like the idea of weapon speed. But I like cyclical initiative more.