Thoughts on charging for game table "miniatures"

catsclaw227

First Post
I had posted in the announcement thread about non-randomized virtual minis that I wouldn't mind paying for different poses of the same creature (or different weapon/clothing setups) as long as I could use as many of them as I want.

catsclaw227 - another thread said:
Now that this has been cleared up, I wonder if I'll be able to buy 1 skeleton in a certain pose and duplicate/reuse it as often as I wish. If that's the case, then I would even be willing to buy 4-5 (or more) different poses and weapon selections.

What would be cool is if you get a mini-creator tool, like in a PC game, and then the resulting creature gets saved in your virtual mini collection for you to duplicate/reuse. I would go hog wild there, outfitting up creatures and they would probably make more money from me that way.
 

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Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
Ideally:
The artists who design for the physical D&D Minis game should be using a 3-D modeling program. They send those models to China and the manufacturer there uses the model when creating the mold. They can turn and manipulate the 3-D model however they need in order to get the physical "sculpt" right.

Back in Renton, the DDI team takes the EXACT SAME 3-D model and tweaks it however they need to in order for it to be an object on the virtual tabletop.

The above process saves an awful lot of time and money. Way, way more efficient than sculpting in "green stuff", shipping that to china, having china ship back a prototype, etc. etc. It also saves the step of having a 3-D modeler try to recreate a physical green stuff sculpt.

As for paying for virtual minis:
WotC really needs to figure out the value proposition for their subscription. Hellgate: London and Xbox Live Gold are two examples of subscriptions done WRONG. In both cases, the perception is that the user gets crippleware unless he pays a fee.

I understand the appeal of subscriptions. Once someone signs up there's a barrier (of hassle, time, etc.) to shutting off that wallet siphon. From the point of view of the company receiving those regular cash infusions, subscriptions are wonderful: cashflow is critical to the success of any company, and a hit-driven company--like a book or game publisher--typically struggles with cashflow (D&D Minis and Magic keep WotC infused with steady cash, but a literal subscription is even more predictable and regular).

I said literal subscription up there because Magic, D&D Minis, and even D&D already are nonformal subscriptions. You buy X packs per month, X boxes per month, X books per month--that's a regular outlay of cash even if you haven't signed a contract. But I digress.

I think WotC needs to EITHER charge money for virtual minis, OR include virtual minis as one component of value that comes in return for a monthly fee. The only way to charge for both a subscription and figures is to include some figures in the subscription fee: in exchange for $9.99/month (or whatever) they give you a $5 credit toward virtual minis. Once you spend that $5/month, any additional minis you buy will cost $.

The hybrid model has a nice side effect of enticing new virtual mini customers; the old "the first one is free" technique.

However they decide to do it, it's unrealistic to expect virtual minis to be free. Creating 3-D models (not to mention the virtual tabletop itself) takes time and money, and WotC can reasonably expect to charge money for delivering this product.
 
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Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
catsclaw227 said:
What would be cool is if you get a mini-creator tool, like in a PC game, and then the resulting creature gets saved in your virtual mini collection for you to duplicate/reuse. I would go hog wild there, outfitting up creatures and they would probably make more money from me that way.

This is a cool idea. Sell a base "skeleton" 3-d model, then allow the user to equip that monster however they want (via the typical "paper doll" system used in most computer RPG games). Of course, all the weapons and equipment are also for sale.

And definitely agree that once you buy a model, you should be able to field as many copies of that model as you wish. There's no point in asking a player to buy "five" skeletons, if all the skeletons are the exact same model. Unlike a physical mini, there's zero per-unit production cost.

That's one of the huge, huge benefits of virtual objects: you spend the money to create it once, and then you sell it an infinite number of times at no additional cost. This is the type of saving that should be passed on to the consumer: once Bob buys a skeleton, he should be able to use any number of that particular model of skeleton. But if he wants an orc skeleton, or a troll skeleton (in other words, a new model), he has to buy them. Same if he wants to equip his skeletons with a two-handed sword, or a mace and shield. The 3-D models of those weapons should cost $. But again, once you buy the cool "Silverymoon Militia Sword" you should be able to equip every one of your various minis with it.

Which brings up the per-unit cost of small items like weapons. There's a certain minimum price for an object to be sold, below which the transaction costs become too expensive. The value (the price a consumer will pay) of an item like a virtual sword for DDI is likely $.10 or at most $.25. That's way too low to charge unless you use a virtual currency like Xbox Live points (sold in bulk lots of $10). But I bet you could sell a "Silverymoon Militia Armory" set for $5, if the set included a sword, axe, spear, shield, various armor, and helms all done in a similar style such that they can all seem to be munitions-grade equipment for the same standardized militia. And I bet you could sell special weapons, like "Flaming", in packs as well.

Hm. Very interesting opportunity sits before the creative folks at Wizards. It'll be fun to see what they come up with.

-z

Oh, and if you want to see a virtual minis game done right, check out http://www.poxnora.com.
 


Felnar

First Post
here's my idea... Sponsors.
some will pay for the figures, some wont (e.g. me)
so why not get the corporations to pay for me

throw a mountain dew t-shirt on that orc fig,
slap the pepsi logo on that small shield

in fact, when i kill the Pizza Hut Gnoll, put a dollar off coupon in the loot
 


Zelster

First Post
I don't think charging for virtual minis would be too much of an issue. If they took it too far though...

I'll be really glad if they allow all the minis to be used with the subscription fee though, such an offer would be a great way to entice players to pay the monthly fee.
 

Cryptos

First Post
On comparing DDI to an mmo - All things being equal (I don't suddenly come into a lot of money), I'll probably be making a choice between the mmo that I sometimes play and DDI. So I can't help but make that comparison, even just a little bit.

They don't have to be the same thing for me to make an Opportunity Cost comparison. Just as I can make a comparison between, say, riding public transportation or making a car payment. Or living in an apartment or trying to make a house payment. Different things, but occupying the same 'opportunity cost' category.

Now, as a roleplayer, obviously the stronger inclination is toward DDI because the content is free-form and player-made. My character can do what he wants and say what he wants. He doesn't have to kill the bad guy when he can seal him inside the tomb. He doesn't even have to confront the bad guy (railroading DMs aside.) It's freedom to roleplay. I can build worlds and scenarios.

But then, looking at the technology, I'm building a flat world that I have to populate using flat tokens, or pay extra for miniatures - and even with the flat tokens in the flat world, after a certain number of tokens, I'm presumably buying more.

Flat... basically, I'm paying a subscription for a virtual table. That, and two magazines that won't ever be fully useful to me that I can only access online and lose access to if I unsubscribe, and a character creator / visualizer.

It is true that DDI is not an MMO, because the nature of the gameplay is different and without a lot of work by a group of people working together, it will never be anything approaching 'persistent'. But a comparison can be drawn in terms of technology and value because they are both online computer software for gaming.

Basically, what they are asking me to do is spend $10 a month for a table on the Internet:

DDI
  • 2-D environment with extra money for 3-D miniatures on a 2-D world map.
  • I am completely dependent on whatever community WotC can build in order to play - the equivalent of always being in "LFG" mode or looking for a group IRL.
  • To integrate the rules and the (2-D) environment, I have to pay extra money. Otherwise I'm trying to use a stack of books at my computer desk.
  • The character creator that every character-driven game comes with - whether it's MMO, single player, online, offline, 2d, 3d, etc. All information has to come from external, analog sources unless I pay extra. Not all options are available, unless I pay extra. So without the extra fee, I'm basically creating the characters the same way I would at an actual table: limited by the books I have and having to leaf through the books to do so.

As opposed to a 3-D world with continually updating content, available 24/7 regardless of whether anyone I want to play with is around, that like all character-driven games has a character generator and visualizer, tool-tips and rules integrated into the system. For $0-$15.95 a month. Yes, $0, if you include games like Guild Wars or Neverwinter Nights.

Speaking of Neverwinter... there's a more direct comparison. It's D&D. You can build a 3-D world with DM tools that can allow almost free-form play (the DM can override or change the world based on the character's actions), rules and character generator included, populated with 3-D NPCs and enemies and an interactive environment. You can also play any time you want, regardless of the availability of any other players, with either the pre-built, more limiting official campaign, or an adventure made by another end-user. One time fee from $20-$50, depending on where and when you buy the game. No monthly fee. Occasionally, there are expansion packs - sometimes they include the original game as well.

The community thing is a big issue. Even if you feel it is worth it to plunk down the money for this, if you are in the minority, you're not going to have a whole lot to do in DDI. To make it sustainable, they've got to have a scheme that has broad appeal so that there are players and DMs available so subscribers can actually play the game on DDI. You can't 'solo' D&D. So those saying it is reasonable in cost, well, you've got each other and that's about it.

$10 a month for a chat room / virtual table and character generator, with everything else costing extra, just seems insane - no matter what you compare it to.

I'm not even including the Dungeon and Dragon subscriptions because I see even less value there. Magazines I can only access online and will only be able to access as long as I pay the upkeep on my subscription, that will have to include a variety of content for the broadest appeal, of which I may only use 10% (optimistially)?

But even if we call that the 'content update' equivalent of an online computer game... there's still no way that DDI compares in value to anything else available.

Even with all of this, I still might consider paying that fee if I can get in some good D&D gaming with it. I'll feel ripped off, but if it's decent enough I still might do it for a flat subscription. But all the extras are killing it for me. That will be the deal breaker. Paying extra for everything in addition to that monthly fee? They're nickle-and-diming this thing to death, milking it way out of proportion.

I see two ways to make it viable:

1) Make DDI a virtual storefront where you pay for all these extras or to unlock the content in your rulebook. Make the table-top gameplay area free. This is not unlike book stores where you can sit and browse through books before buying them, or gaming stores that host events from time to time and have gaming tables available.

Essentially, a store with a free gaming table. The stuff you buy, you can use at the free gaming table.

"Going to DDI" is like going to Barnes and Noble or your friendly gaming store and finding they've set up a table for you to play at. Which isn't far off from being able to go into the coffee shop area or sitting in one of their chairs and reading the book, talking about it with friends also in the store, and so forth.

They sell magazines, books, dice, miniatures, and all the other stuff but anyone can come in and browse, chat with the other customers, arrange to play a game somewhere, and so forth - for free - as though they are walking through a virtual store. When you buy something, it is "yours"... not something that you are renting with your subscription.

2) Make DDI a monthly pay-to-play gaming environment with an equal or lower subscription to what you have now, with no cost to unlock the virtual content from the physical books you've already bought, or any other content.

A flat-rate subscription.

One of those two options above makes it appealing enough that I would do it. But a flat-rate subscription plus a store front kills it for me. One or the other, please.
 
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Zelc

First Post
The WotC virtual tabletop should honestly be free, and they should charge small amounts for miniatures. There are plenty of good virtual tabletops out there like OpenRPG and Maptools, and there are free voice chat programs like Ventrilo and Skype. I honestly don't see myself paying 10 bucks a month just for the Dungeon and Dragon magazine subscriptions.

I don't know if WotC realizes they're competing with free programs here, and that in order to beat free, you better have some perks on top of it. For someone just looking for a virtual tabletop, I don't see the official VTT having those perks to justify a $10 a month payment.
 

Odhanan

Adventurer
eleran said:
The only fact that the concept was actually thought about seriously is what I find sad, laughable and/or insane, specifically.

Non-random virtual minis are just about as laughable/sad/insane to me, by the way.
 

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