Thoughts on charging for game table "miniatures"

[broghammerj]

Yeah, since all book layout is now done on computers it's not like they even need to scan anything. It's just save in one format for your printer and another for the pdf... or possibly they even use pdf for both!

I don't want to come off as sounding like WotC shouldn't make money....They should! There are several different ways to turn a profit. Charge very expensive prices and thus limiting product availability to those special few who can afford it or charge a reasonable price and open it up to the masses. I would argue that's its better for the masses, the hobby, and the company if more people have product in their hand.

I am curious if someone knows anything about costs with 3-D modeling. To me it would be relatively cheap to build several body shapes and simply change the skins. You could easily open that up and allow people to mod the skins thus saving a bunch of cost to WotC. WotC provides the monthly service and some basic 3-D body shapes while the internet fans make the skins.

This is very similar to the old computer game Freedom Force. http://www.freedomfans.com//ffpc/screenshots.php

Soon after the game was launched, you could suddenly mod in all sorts of skins to create your own custom superhero teams such as the Avengers, X-men, Justice League, etc. It added immensely to the games popularity and was at no cost to the company.

NWN is probably a similar comparision.

 

[Dormammu]

Well, for a monthly subscription fee, Blizzard models a lot of stuff and drives a lot of monthly content. But for them it works because nine million people pay them every month. Still, that would be my ideal: monthly fee = unlimited use of virtual figs as long as your subscription is active. Perhaps have a unique code in each MM that you tie to your account so only one person has access to the figs for each book sold (as a DM, that is). Of course, they'd be getting subscriptions from everyone in a gaming group so it should be doable.

Honestly, that's why DDI won't ever work for me. I know as a 100% certainty that everyone in my group will not pay for it, therefore we wouldn't be able to game with it. They need a dirt cheap (or free) option to log in and play on someone else's virtual table.

 

[Glyfair]

I know as a 100% certainty that everyone in my group will not pay for it, therefore we wouldn't be able to game with it. They need a dirt cheap (or free) option to log in and play on someone else's virtual table.

There has been some discussion about non-DDI subscribers being able to play for free a certain number of times per month in a subscribing DM's table.

I'm not sure the details, but it was referenced in a discussion about session time limits. Didier mentioned they would have them so a non-subscriber can't login to a table and stay there all month, essentially playing for free all month.

 

[Raloc]

Before I rant: As I understand it, you will get 'token' type markers to use with the regestration of the Monster Manual. So, you shouldn't actually 'need' virtual minis to play. (Unless that has changed since the GamerSteve interview.)

Now, for the ranting...
I already think it is a ridiculous rip off that I have to pay money for 'random' plastic minis. I purchase fewer and fewrer boxes with each set that comes out, instead I watch ebay or my FLGS and pick up what I need individually.

If WotC thinks I'm going to pay money, no mater how much/little, for random virtual minis they're absolutly flippin insane! For this reason, I have absolutley no desire to run any games on the virtual table. Play them maybe, but no way I'll run them.

Grrrrrrr.....

When I heard about 4e, I was somewhat dismayed that all ~50+ of my various books would be practically obsolete, or at the very least, out dated. However, I quickly overcame that disappointment when I heard about the software (what can I say, firstly I'm a game developer, so I like software, secondly, most of my group is spread across Europe, so we use online PnP tools almost exclusively (save the time we met up in Geneva, Switzerland and played IRL, which was much less RP-goodness)).

I figured, "Finally, we have a polished, sanctioned piece of kit from WotC to use for net PnP. Now I won't have to bother writing my own vtabletop." I saw one of the videos of the "v-minis" and was pretty excited, despite the near-loss of serveral hundred dollars worth of books (well, technically I can still use them of course, but there are some good rule changes in 4e, and it still *feels* like they're obsolete, even if they aren't).

This past week I decided to check out the state of the 4e union, so to speak, and see what the news was. Mostly nothing special, then I started looking more into the D&DI stuff, and found some info that seemed to invalidate my assumptions about it that 1) you'd just get the software with your books, possibly with a key (wrong of course, it's some sort of online app that you have to subscribe to) and 2) it'd include a base set of stuff from the core books (wrong, you apparently have to pay for random v-minis and pay for duplicates).

Now, when I heard about 4e from ENWorld, I told my group. A mixed reaction was had by all, but I took it upon myself to spread the word that we'd have some better software to play future games with. Excitement throughout the group (8+ players that usually play a couple of concurrent campaigns) spread and everyone now is looking forward to 4e in general, and the tools in particular.

So I find out that WotC is basically screwing their customers in the worst possible way. As a game developer, I find it absolutely ridiculous that they expect us to pay for "random" packs of v-minis in the first place, and that you have to pay for each instance through this system as well. So no giant battle of orcs, since you only got 3 in your 20 packs of v-minis, which only cost you some $500+. Any game artist will tell you it takes about the same amount of time to make any given 3d model, especially without animations (not sure if those will be there, but given their abhorrent pricing model, I somehow doubt it). Thus there is absolutely no damned reason to have "random" minis, and limiting it to a single instance is freaking insane. This smacks of serious betrayal, and anyone that understands the basics of computers knows that it's completely arbitrary.

There is not a single chance in hell that anyone in my group will even remotely consider playing 4e due to this. It makes some sense for MTGO, but for D&D it's just insulting. If WotC doesn't reconsider this position, I personally (and thus, being the DM and the other DM being cheap, our players) will never buy a single 4e book, or probably any D&D related products in times to come. I wish it were not so, but I feel I have very little choice.

Not to mention the fact that if you go pay $500+ for your 3 orcs (and tons of other duplicates, yay /sarcasm), and you cancel your D&DI sub, or WotC willy-nilly stops supporting it because they screwed enough customers over to stop making a profit, bam, you're out all your money without a single avenue of compensation.

What's next? Are they going to have every player have to pay for the random v-minis, and have the same ones to play in a game together? "Oops, you don't have monster #231, please buy 20 more boosters and cross your fingers!" This stuff is freaking ridiculous.

 

[Glyfair]

2) it'd include a base set of stuff from the core books (wrong, you apparently have to pay for random v-minis and pay for duplicates).

I really recommend that you wait until you have facts. The last we heard nothing was determined. WotC did mention random minis (and nothing about whether duplicates would be an issue). However, they mentioned at the same time they were looking at many options and nothing was written in stone. To my knowledge there has been no update since then.

It does seem that you will have to pay for any additional monsters beyond whatever is in the base. However, more details haven't been revealed and WotC might not even have decided yet.

Relevant post from Didier Monin:

From here:

We have not yet finalized the details regarding the V-Miniatures that will be available, and how they will be made available. Stay tuned on dndinsider.com to learn more on this.

This said, regardless of the use or not of V-miniatures, there will be a way to represent your monsters in a more basic way, like tokens that will be provided with your subscription. Some of these tokens may directly display the images of the monsters we publish, some may be provided to represent anything you want. We are still working on these details, but once again, we are mainly doing online the same thing that you already do at your home game table: If you do not have a miniature for a monster, you use something else to represent it (another mini, a piece of paper, a token,...)... and the books you buy do not come with the miniatures of all the monsters in the book.

and here

We are still looking and defining the exact details of how digital miniatures will be available for the game table, and we will provide the relevant information in due time through the dndinsider.com articles.

Getting miniatures for the online game table from randomized boosters is certainly envisioned, even if that may not be the only way to get them.

and Scott's comment from back in August

You'll get a basic set of monsters and NPCs as part of you subscription to Insider. You'll be able to make PC based minis with the character creator (and I suppose NPCs within the core races/classes). New sets of monsters will be released that you'll be able to add to your game over time.

There will also be tokens you can use on the game table to represent monsters/NPCs.

More info to follow at a later date.

 

[Raloc]

I really recommend that you wait until you have facts. The last we heard nothing was determined. WotC did mention random minis (and nothing about whether duplicates would be an issue). However, they mentioned at the same time they were looking at many options and nothing was written in stone. To my knowledge there has been no update since then.

It does seem that you will have to pay for any additional monsters beyond whatever is in the base. However, more details haven't been revealed and WotC might not even have decided yet.

Relevant post from Didier Monin:

From here:

and Scott's comment from back in August

Thanks for your post Glyfair. I know of the information you posted, however, from the veiled hints that the WotC folks have thrown out there, it seems like they're hell bent on screwing us all over.

If they do random v-minis, then by definition you wouldn't be able to have multiple instances (since that would possibly be *more* retarded than not being able to, since you could and probably would end up paying for a "booster" in which you gained nothing since you already had every model or even a substantial portion of them). I know at least I personally would not be very thrilled at essentially giving away my ~$15+ (or whatever) to WotC for absolutely nothing in return.

If there is even the slightest chance they are going with this insane and ridiculously insulting model (and it seems the case, given the aforementioned veiled hints), I feel it's my duty to b*tch vehemently about it. I want these tools to be great. I want my group to buy into 4e. Random v-minis would be the death knell to any of that, which the ridiculous "subscription fee" (through which you basically get nothing I might add, except that now Dungeon and Dragon magazines are canceled save some funky net only version (so freaking lame, I liked my physical magazines***), which feels like freaking extortion, and basically you'd be completely boned if they decided for any reason to cancel the service since you can't download the freaking apps).

I get to play D&D little enough as it is (I work 9-12 hour days at a job I really enjoy, and the rest of my group has very little time as well), so I seriously do not want what I see as a possible rejuvination of our session to be killed before it can even start.


*** - Kudos to Paizo however, on their leftover subscription reward thingy, since Pathfinder is pretty cool, even if I don't get to use it.

 

[Nikosandros]

It appears that the idea of random v-minis has been discarded by WotC. Thats' great news!

Actually, I'm sure it's all part of an evil conspiracy... first they hint that the minis will be random, then when we find out that they actually aren't we'll be happy to pay outrageous fees for them!

 

[frankthedm]

It appears that the idea of random v-minis has been discarded by WotC. Thats' great news!

Yep.

 

[DonTadow]

Yep.

Unless they plan on stopping the dozen or so virtual table tops (some free some much cheaper) I do'nt see this business model makng much since. It would be a lot of money programming for little profit. Even in 3d the game, is it really worth 30 or 40 bucks worth of minis a game. That will buy a lot of pizza and soda.

I"m still questioning the 3d aspect of the board might be too cumbersome for your average group.

 

[Novem5er]

I think they will make profit on the 3d Game Table simply by letting players use it. The entire point is to get people playing and to keep them playing. I'm sure they've done surveys enough to realize that a large portion of old players no longer play because their old groups have moved apart and that new players are pulled away by MMOs.

Heck, I know "old" players who now play MMOs because it's so hard to get people together to play D&D.

The more people that can hook up to play D&D, the more books and services they will sell. I think the Game Table is key to bringing players together in this endeavor. That said, it behooves them to make the Game Table as attractive an option as possible.

Take a lesson from Nintendo:

It's been reported that Nintendo commits so much money and time (with its most talented staff) to designing each Mario game, that they actually "lose" money with each Mario game produced. They might sell a couple million copies, but the Mario game itself never makes back its investment. So why does Nintendo bother making Mario games?

To sell Nintendos.

People everywhere will buy a Nintendo system JUST to play the newest Mario. Unlike the other console manufacturers, Nintendo actually posts a profit on each system sold, not to mention all the other games people will buy other than Mario. They invest heavily into a product that sells their other products for them.

The Game Table:

Invest a reasonable amount to make it a good product. Make it attractive to players and make it cheap or free to use. Players will use it... and it will sell them other products which are required to take advantage of the table... aka D&D books.