Thoughts on charging for game table "miniatures"

[RPG_Tweaker]

So far, this DDI thing seems to be headed in a ridiculous direction. One that will not just keep me away, but set a seriously negative mind-set.


Dungeon and Dragon should be divorced from the rest of the DDI. A face-to-face PNP-only group gets zero value from the other online tools, and paying for what you aren't using is a waste of money.

Both e-zines should be available as downloadable PDFs (w/a personalized watermark). If I buy it, it's MINE and should be in MY possession. The thought that it might only be available online, requiring access to their website to view it... is an affront.


As for the rest, paying extra to "rent" bits, that in any other computer-game are included, is an insult. And this random virtual mini concept goes beyond the pale; it's a blatent slap in the face. There is NO excuse for randomizing that which has no continued production/distribution costs. This is bald-faced hoodwinking of extra revenue from consumers.

 

[Glyfair]

On the contrary, I not only think the Dungeon content is useful, I feel it is necessary. DDI is much like an MMO (they say it isn't, but that doesn't change that it is a virtual, online, multiplayer game). What MMO have you ever subscribed to that didn't come with plot as part of the subscription????

I think this bears some emphasis. D&D isn't a MMO. It shouldn't try to be a MMO (which doesn't exclude drawing ideas from MMOs). The DDI isn't going to come close to the market penetration of a MMO.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

As much as we may complain about the idea here, it seems to have worked very well (in other words, profitably for WotC) with the virtual Magic cards.

If it will make money, they will do it.

Magic is a game that works with randomized cards. D&D minis is a game that works with randomized figures. Tabletop D&D (virtual or otherwise) is not well-served by randomized figures. If they're going to have "D&D minis online" that's one thing. Randomized tabletop figurines is a whole other story.

 

[Traycor]

I think this bears some emphasis. D&D isn't a MMO. It shouldn't try to be a MMO (which doesn't exclude drawing ideas from MMOs). The DDI isn't going to come close to the market penetration of a MMO.

And that is precisely the problem. WotC doesn't want it to be an MMO, and they aren't looking at it like one. However...

The average consumer is going to look at this like an MMO, because that is what they know. And pound for pound, DDI is going to fall far short of what an MMO is offering content wise (even though it is charging the same price per month). Average consumers are likely to feel ripped off by the bare-bones tools and lack of sophistication. This could go very badly for WotC.

I want DDI to do well

 

[Hussar]

Traycor - DDI is most certainly NOT an MMO. An MMO is a fully functional game that is limited by the game itself.

The DDI is a virtual tabletop. There are no limits beyond what you as the DM come up with. Take a look at something like OpenRPG to see what a VTT looks like. Comparing it to an MMO is simply false.

OTOH, if they limit what I can put up on my battlemap to "official" minis and maps, it's useless. I highly, highly doubt they would do that. That would mean that I could only use the VTT to play Dungeon magazine adventures and maybe RPGA. Once they get around to coding it for the VTT.

Not going to happen.

Paying for the virtual models is going to be an added value, not a core element. If you want to use tokens that you gank from various sources, I'm sure that that won't be a problem.

 

[Traycor]

The DDI is a virtual tabletop. There are no limits beyond what you as the DM come up with. Take a look at something like OpenRPG to see what a VTT looks like. Comparing it to an MMO is simply false.

Not saying that it is an MMO. In fact, I pointed out a few times that it is trying to not compare itself with MMO's. However, by having a monthly subscription, WotC is putting itself in direct competition with MMO's. So the value must be compared against what an MMO offers.

And many games offer open-ended play. NWN and Warcraft III both come with tools to create your own levels and adventures. Some First Person Shooters even have level editors. So those games are open-ended just like what you are describing. However, those don't charge ANY money to play online. It's kinda hard to justify a monthly subscription when many competitors offer the same service for free.

But... their services include models, graphics, and animation. On top of that, you can mod those games yourself for free. None of those things are being offered on DDI. It's as if a flat grid and the privilege of talking to friends online is worth $15 a month. Ventrillo and many other voice chat programs are free.

The only thing they are offering that is up to stuff is the ability to match with other players to jump into games at random. We don't have that kind of service any other way (unless you play NWN, in which case they have that to).

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

This issue has the potential to be a deal-breaker for me. I want to use the VTT, and that's pretty much the only reason I'd subscribe to DDI. If they're charging $10/month for each player in my group (ATM, $50/month to play D&D with my friends from out of town), they had better pony up with an attractive package. I'd pay $5 to unlock an entire book of monsters, and spread the costs out so that we each pay $1 to have nice minis. But anything more then that and I'm starting to wonder "why the hell are we paying for this?" Doesn't $50/month sound like we're paying enough to play the "deluxe version"? What else could I spend $50/month on, while I use Skype and OpenRPG instead? If I'm going to use an ugly interface with counters, I might as well just use a free VTT.

What if I decide to cancel? Do I get my money back? Do I get real minis to replace my virtual ones? Do I get the value in book rebates?

Given that the game table is supposed to be the centrepiece of the DDI, and the main gateway to finding and playing in games, if it looks like crap by default, it's going to turn people off. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they don't turn this into something I'm going to hate.

Before anyone chimes in with "but you get the character sheets and encounter thingy and whatever," these things are, as I see it, cute frills appended to the VTT. They're minor timesaving devices, and seem to be designed to make it easier to run pick-up games and living FR modules over the VTT. The VTT is the centrepiece of this package, it's what they're selling the DDI on, and so it had better be worth it.

 

[Traycor]

Most of the responses I've seen in defense of DDI have stated that the costs must be covered. I understand that position.

The main flaw in this reasoning is how WotC will cover these costs. If the game table is a highly attractive package that draws in new players, then they will cover the costs of those extra models, set pieces, etc in sales of extra books and new subscriptions.

By give us our money's worth instead of bleeding us for each additional little feature, they will make far more money in new books sales and subscriptions. This would far and away cover the cost of creating these features.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I'm not here to argue with anyone, because what's a "good value" is too subjective for anyone to "win" (to the extent you can "win" anything on a forum...). I'm just gonna' say my part for any WotC folks reading this thread:

1. Random minis suck. If I'm running Against the Giants, I need Giants. Period. D&D isn't a collectibles game. Your random packs are the reason I have never bought a mini from WotC.

2. Virtual minis better be darn cheap. Your virtual minis are already worth a lot less than plastic ones because I cannot use them in my Iron Heroes game. The "rent" factor makes it worse.

3. Dragon, Dungeon and the Online Tools should be sold separately. Dragon is no use to me and I suspect the Online Tools will be of little use. Dungeon on PDF is not worth $10.

I make a good living and have money to spend on this stuff, but I won't buy "a bad value." That includes (1) minis I don't need, (2) minis I can't use in any game except yours, and (3) articles I don't need.

Good luck in business; I guess we'll just see if you get any of mine (other than the Core rulebooks; those are nice; keep up the good work there).

 

[Warbringer]

If I'm not mistaken, you can redeem your virtual MtG cards for physical cards.

If the DDi has this, maybe not so bad, especially with a trade center