Thoughts on charging for game table "miniatures"

[Lord Xtheth]

Seeing as how I'm going to subscribe to Insider when it comes out (IF they fix the fact that I can't re-join STILL) And the virtual table is part of it anyway, I can see myself buying a couple extra minis for it, but only IF I get into playing online with far away friends.
Otherwise I'll just use the Insider tools to make my adventures and leave it at that.

 

[Cadfan]

I don't mind being charged. Creating decent quality 3e models requires time, effort, and software, and you have to pay the person who does it.

If the models are ONLY available randomly, I won't use them. If I happen to need a particular monster, I want to be able to just plain buy it. If I don't care about another monster, I don't want to buy it. And I don't want to end up paying as much or more buying the models individually than I would if I were buying the models in random packs.

As long as there are tokens, this won't stop me from using the system. I really don't mind tokens instead of 3d models.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Someone point to a source for "random" virtual minis. last good info was Chris Perkins on the "Gaming Steve" podcast, and that seemed to indicate that they'd be purchased non-randomly.

 

[Stoat]

As much as we may complain about the idea here, it seems to have worked very well (in other words, profitably for WotC) with the virtual Magic cards.

I haven't played MtG in 10 years or more, but I recollect that the random aspect of the boosters was part of game play. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that one of the challenges of playing MtG is assembling a good deck from a group of random cards. Otherwise, what's the point of a sealed deck tournament?

Also, aren't rare Magic cards generally more powerful that commons? If so, random boosters are a necessary element of game balance for MtG.

OTOH, random minis are not a functional part of traditional D&D. IME, the DM prepares an adventure first and selects minis to use second. Unlike MtG, random minis aren't really part of the overall game.

Now I know that DDM uses random minis, but WotC's virtual tabletop isn't DDM. It's D&D.

 

[carmachu]

I can accept, if I were to use it, paying a small fee to unlock sets of minis by sets, same as you unlock the books.

Anything beyond that forget about. I dont want to pay per monster and random? ugh.

 

[zoroaster100]

Let me clarify in case it wasn't clear from my original post. I would absolutely never pay for random virtual tokens or miniatures. I accept (barely) the prospect of random plastic miniatures, but I would never accept that for virtual miniatures. The only way I would buy these is if you got the entire set (such as all Desert of Desolation miniatures) for a fixed price. All the justifications that WOTC has given for the need to have random miniatures when selling their plastic models fall apart when you are talking about virtual miniatures. There is the up front design cost for the company to design them, but after that they are produced for free in infinite number. They need to be cheap, or I won't buy into the whole virtual table model to begin with. Otherwise I'll just stick with the in-person gaming.

 

[Novem5er]

Here's my problem with purchasing virtual minis, random or not...

What if I stop paying for DDI?

They've already said that they are working on a way for subscribers to access all the Dungeon/Dragon material that they had previously had a subscription for. For instance, you pay for 6 months of DDI, you have access to all the articles released during the time you paid.

But that would be impossible with the Gaming Table and purchased V-minis.

The Game Table itself is a service, not a product, so it's okay to not access it without a subscription. However, the V-minis would be a "product", purchased to add value to a service. I don't want to pay money for a product that I can no longer use if I cancel a service.

See, MMO's like WoW, require TIME to gain additional abilities/powers/equipment.. not real world money. If a player quits the service, they are only out time-invested. It's no real loss because players now have "time" to do whatever else they want.

With the Game Table and V-minis, if you quit, you are out real, hard-earned money. You do not get that money back. They only way to make use of that money is to pay the subscription. With real minis, even if I never play D&D with them, they are physical product with which I can do (or not do) anything I want. There is no additional expense to use the things I already paid for.

Also, to compare D&D V-minis to V-magic-cards is unfair. Magic Online has no subscription fee!

That being said, I would pay for V-minis under four conditions:

1) Minis are non-random.
2) Minis are dramatically cheaper than the plastic ones.
3) We have unlimited "copies" of minis purchased.
4) Rare minis are not priced by Scrye magazine.

I'm not paying $20 for virtual beholder that I can no longer use/hand/look-at if I quit paying the $10-15 a month service fee.

As an aside, using 2D monster tokens with 3D PC minis on a 3D battlefield is... anti-climatic to say the least. Just throw away the dynamic lighting, get rid of 3D PC minis, etc.

"Oooo... the eerie glow of this cave really makes that flat drawing of a dragon very scary. My PC, which towers over said dragon, is really quite frightened."

 

[Riley]

As much as we may complain about the idea here, it seems to have worked very well (in other words, profitably for WotC) with the virtual Magic cards.

MTG is a very different beast than RPG's. Anyone who plays Magic is used to the idea of paying for each card they're going to use, and the game is inherently all about laying those specific cards down on a (virtual or real) tabletop in a strategic manner.

RPG's are about creating a story. The miniatures are just placeholders, there to look cool and expedite play.

The MTG Online model might appeal to dedicated DDM players. I wouldn't know. I'm not one and I don't know any, but maybe there are some out there that'd be interested in a special, costly DDM competition area of the DDI.

However, for use in playing D&D the RPG, virtual miniatures sold using the MTG online model have no chance of appealing to me. And virtual tokens will make the Virtual Tabletop a very primitive-looking toy.

 

[Imban]

I haven't played MtG in 10 years or more, but I recollect that the random aspect of the boosters was part of game play. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that one of the challenges of playing MtG is assembling a good deck from a group of random cards. Otherwise, what's the point of a sealed deck tournament?

It is, except generally this is only true in casual play and sealed deck / booster draft tournaments. In real tournament play, especially Type 2, you aren't building from a group of random cards, you're building from as many as necessary of all legal cards even if you have to go out and buy them. Otherwise you're just playing to lose.

Also, aren't rare Magic cards generally more powerful that commons? If so, random boosters are a necessary element of game balance for MtG.

Generally, rare cards have more "interesting" effects, which does not necessarily translate to more powerful. Also see above: in real tournaments, rares that are bread-and-butter in a Type 2 block just become very expensive ($20ish) rares that everyone has to go buy four of in order to sit down to play. This generally pisses the vocal segment of the fanbase off, and WotC doesn't see much gain from doing this unless the entire set otherwise was lame, so it usually doesn't happen.

OTOH, random minis are not a functional part of traditional D&D. IME, the DM prepares an adventure first and selects minis to use second. Unlike MtG, random minis aren't really part of the overall game.

Now I know that DDM uses random minis, but WotC's virtual tabletop isn't DDM. It's D&D.

Yup, random minis kind of just plain blow for D&D.

 

[frankthedm]

Thoughts on charging for game table "miniatures"

Very angry thoughts. Very angry