Thoughts on charging for game table "miniatures"

[reutbing0]

Very angry thoughts. Very angry

I understand the impulse, but I think we live in a world where we have to get used to paying for virtual goods. A virtual mini may not have that much inherent value, but I think you're paying more for the service than the actual product.. I believe that's a trend that will impact society way beyond gaming, but that's a discussion for a different forum.

 

[Cabled]

What sticks with me is that I'm not really paying for "virtual minis", random or not...I am paying to RENT THEM. As soon as WotC decides this isn't supported anymore, those minis are gone. Whereas the metal and plastics I have accumulated over almost 30 years of gaming...they're still in the game room in my cases.

 

[captaincursor]

I'd pay extra to buy a full set of miniatures for the Monster Manual. Though this unabashed cheerleader is starting to feel a little nickel and dimed to death by all this. But random? We're not playing digital DDM, we're playing digital D&D. Don't make me constrain my plots and games based on what the booster pack had. I was a huge fan of 4th edition and was going to eagerly jump aboard it. But if they go ahead with digital randomized miniatures then I might as well just find some other solution, like use Neverwinter Nights as my digital game table. With the community expansion packs I'll have most of the monsters available (in their 3ed look, but ah well) and just run it online there.

Bottom line for me is that if each digital miniature isn't infinitely cloneable at the game table, and I can't go out and buy the miniatures that I want directly then the game table isn't worth it. I can achieve a better solution for a lot less with a minimum of work. Make a separate digital DDM service if you want to sell randomized booster packs. But give DMs the ability to just tell stories and play the game.

 

[Dormammu]

I think it is realistic to expect virtual miniatures to be non-random. In fact, I think it's likely they will be sold individually.

I think it is likely they will be cloneable.

I think the prices people are expressing willingness to pay are super mega-unlikely. If Wizards will charge the exact same amount for virtual Magic: TG cards as they do for real ones, there is no way I see them giving you every monster in the Monster Manual for a few, or even ten, dollars.

Here is what I would guess:

$2-3 for normal-sized monsters, like orcs.
$5-8 for larger things like bullettes and giants
$10-15 for dragons, demon lords, etc

I just think this is realistically what they will do, not what I hope they will. I kinda assume they would be cloneable. It would be too hard to come up with a price point for non-cloneable minis. But they will still try to get more money out of you buy doing things like "orc with sword", "orc with axe", "orc archer", "orc wizard" and so forth. Many will succumb to the temptation of having that orc raiding party have a look of variety.

Thus ends my prediction!

 

[Glyfair]

OTOH, random minis are not a functional part of traditional D&D. IME, the DM prepares an adventure first and selects minis to use second. Unlike MtG, random minis aren't really part of the overall game.

Now I know that DDM uses random minis, but WotC's virtual tabletop isn't DDM. It's D&D.

But if they decide to use the virtual tabletop for DDM, I can see them having random minis. I think they will alienate a large part of the RPG market if that is the only way to get them, but it would make sense for virtual DDM.

That being said, last I saw (months ago), they were considering their options and hadn't decided anything for certain. Now I have to go look and see if Didier has posted anything recently.

I think it is realistic to expect virtual miniatures to be non-random. In fact, I think it's likely they will be sold individually.

Honestly, I expect sets. Maybe by DDM sets (Desert of Desolation figures for $10), by book (all the MMII monsters for $15) or maybe by theme (10 different orc figures for $2).

 

[Nikosandros]

$2-3 for normal-sized monsters, like orcs.
$5-8 for larger things like bullettes and giants
$10-15 for dragons, demon lords, etc

No offense, but I hope that your prediction is wrong... those prices are IMHO, out of whack for virtual miniatures...

 

[Dormammu]

No offense, but I hope that your prediction is wrong... those prices are IMHO, out of whack for virtual miniatures...

Hey, I hope I'm wrong too! But if they charge the exact same amount of money for a virtual Magic card as a real one? Think about that for a second. That is literally selling you an image dump of the file they used to print the cards they were going to print anyway. And you pay like $8 for a "pack" of these randomized image dumps.

Virtual minis will require actual computer modeling to create. There's no way (imo) that they will be anything like the kind of prices people are hoping (all the monsters in a MM for $5-10, a set of a dozen orcs for $2, etc). I just can't imagine it. But I'd be happy to be incorrect.

 

[Nikosandros]

Hey, I hope I'm wrong too! But if they charge the exact same amount of money for a virtual Magic card as a real one? Think about that for a second. That is literally selling you an image dump of the file they used to print the cards they were going to print anyway. And you pay like $8 for a "pack" of these randomized image dumps.

Virtual minis will require actual computer modeling to create. There's no way (imo) that they will be anything like the kind of prices people are hoping (all the monsters in a MM for $5-10, a set of a dozen orcs for $2, etc). I just can't imagine it. But I'd be happy to be incorrect.

However an RPG is very different from a collectible card game... as others have posted, in Magic, getting all the cool cards that you need to build your deck is part of the game.

 

[Traycor]

I don't mind being charged. Creating decent quality 3e models requires time, effort, and software, and you have to pay the person who does it.

This is the part that baffles me. I'm going to be paying for a monthly subscription. If the 3d models aren't built into the system, then what am I paying for?

[rant]
If I pay for an MMO, there is character creation, sure, but there are also worlds and creatures as well. With DDI it looks like all we are getting is character creation, plus a flat grid and some rule processors that can be made with excel spreadsheets. They won't even have "props" built into the system. It's just a grid. I could get more for my money buying an old copy of NWN for 20 bucks. That covers the grid, the rules, the models, the monsters, and it's free online to play.

I'm worried that Wizards is going to find that the standard customer has a much higher expectation than they think of what a monthly subscription should deliver. Even the Dragon/Dungeon content falls flat. I mean, we were getting these same types of articles for free on the web before. Now we have to pay for them just because a print magazine went away? Is Wizards not going to do articles on their website anymore for customers that don't subscribe?

Last I checked, WoW does articles on their websites for free, since well... they are making their money off the subscriptions already. But the DDI subscription isn't delivering very much at all. Just a grid and the promise of buying "virtual minis" that I won't even own since I need a subscription to keep using anyway. WoW made all their money because they were the first MMO to deliver "free" content. It was being paid for through subscriptions, but they weren't charging extra. Everyone else in the industry was charging for every new addition to their MMO games... and those player bases remained small and weak.

[/end rant]

 

[Glyfair]

But the DDI subscription isn't delivering very much at all.

OK, here is what we "know" will be part of the DDI subscription (subject to change, of course).

Dungeon "subscription"
Dragon "subscription"
Character sheet program
Character creator (creates the virtual "figure" for the VTT)
DM Tools (not a lot of details here yet)
D&D Game Table
- certain number of tokens available at start
- certain number of "monsters" available at start

Given the value of the magazine subscriptions I think that hardly qualifies as "no very much at all." You may not want it, or use it, but you are getting it if you subscribe.