thoughts on Everquest D20

[EarthsShadow]

After reading this post, and so many like this over the last few months...I have come up with a question to ask any and all who desire to answer it...

Why is it, in this day and this kind of game where imagination and open mindedness should rule the day amongst us, do we constantly hear from people that if something is not strictly DnD, it's just not worth the attention at all? Better yet, why is it that people are so afraid to try something different that just may be fun and exciting to do?

I encounter this down at the gaming store I frequent often...there are gamers down there that play just DnD, anything else is beneath them and not worth their time. If you don't play DnD, your not worth their time, period. If you mention that you play EQ to some DnD gamers, they turn their noses up in the air and think that because your playing a computer RPG and not a PnP rpg, your not worth talking to, or inviting into the games being played.

Maybe using the term afraid as listed above is the wrong term...but it can apply in this instance for this reason...

Everquest is a d20 game that uses the OGL, so what. It was designed that way, period. Sure, some things can be used with DnD, but just because some things can't be used doesn't mean the game stinks. Just because its not 100% compatible with DnD doesn't mean its a bad product, or, just because its not 100% compatible with the d20 games out there, its assumed to be a bad product by most 'gamers,' only because its different.

If anything, its good that they made Eq that way. They proved that a OGL game could be made that didn't have to be JUST another d20 game, or JUST compatible with DnD. That was the design of this game. JUST like Mutants and Masterminds coming out, that's just a OGL game, its not using the d20 license, but it IS a d20 game. It's not 100% compatible with DnD, and I know that the DnD fanatics out there, and there are many fanatics on these boards, won't even look at it because it can't be transported to Dungeons and Dragons.

Being a roleplayer, a person who uses his or her imaginations to play a game of make believe, a game of socialization and fun, and yet unable to play something else, or try something else because its not DnD, I'm sorry to say this but all DnD fanatics out there are just...well...I can't say it here, but I am sure you can fill in the blank.

I am speaking my mind here. I am not bashing DnD, I am bashing the idea that everything in the rpg industry has to be compatible with DnD, which it does not. I rarely bash anyone, but for anyone who plays DnD, and only Dnd, who is not willing to try something else, even if its EQ, should not say anything as to why the game is bad, unless they try it themselves. To bash something without trying it is ridiculous and ultimately dumb.

Sure, DnD is cool, its fun, its a game. It's meant to be fun, and it is. What's not fun is hearing, and reading in these posts, all the comments from people who are unwilling to give EQ a chance, and look down at it because its based on a computer game, and that's all. Talk about hypocritical comments and snobbish outlooks from people that plays games that are full of imagination, visualization and the ability to be open minded (or, at least that's how its supposed to be anyway)...

As for comparing Eq to DnD, here are the reasons why EQ is better than DnD...

One, its different. It's not the same ole' d20 system game.

Two, it adds mana to the equation for spells. Frankly, the fire and forget method of casting spell's is way tooooooooo old, and boring. I have two magic missles, i fire one...oops, its gone and out of my memory...i fire the next one... jeez, I don't know my spells anymore...c'mon, really.

Three, more diversity in classes and races.

Four, iterative attacks and weapon speeds that make sense. Now, its not the class itself that dictates when I get my multiple attacks, its combined with the speed of the weapon itself. Now, if I use my dagger at higher levels, I will generally get more attacks with my dagger than I will with my great sword. To me, that makes sense.

Five, they break the mold on the typical fantasy mold that has evolved with the advent of DnD and the d20 license.

Final thought: Be open minded with each product that comes out. Your gamers for gosh sake, act like it. You use your imaginations in your DnD games...why put down other games that don't follow the norm?

With this said, I am expecting some heat from many of you that are hardcore DnD fanatics...and others who actually are willing to touch and play other games, I applaud you for being a diverse person not willing to conform to Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[Corinth]

I can explain the sentiment against the EQRPG in two words: Network Externalities.

Allow me to quote from one of the Dancey interviews:

Here's the logic in a nutshell. We've got a theory that says that D&D is the most popular role playing game because it is the game more people know how to play than any other game. (For those of you interested researching the theory, this concept is called "The Theory of Network Externalities").

Note: This is a very painful concept for a lot of people to embrace, including a lot of our own staff, and including myself for many years. The idea that D&D is somehow "better" than the competition is a powerful and entrenched concept. The idea that D&D can be "beaten" by a game that is "better" than D&D is at the heart of every business plan from every company that goes into marketplace battle with the D&D game. If you accept the Theory of Network Externalities, you have to admit that the battle is lost before it begins, because the value doesn't reside in the game itself, but in the network of people who know how to play it.

If you accept (as I have finally come to do) that the theory is valid, then the logical conclusion is that the larger the number of people who play D&D, the harder it is for competitive games to succeed, and the longer people will stay active gamers, and the more value the network of D&D players will have to Wizards of the Coast.

In fact, we believe that there may be a secondary market force we jokingly call "The Skaff Effect", after our own Skaff Elias. Skaff is one of the smartest guys in the company, and after looking at lots of trends and thinking about our business over a long period of time, he enunciated his theory thusly:

"All marketing and sales activity in a hobby gaming genre eventually contributes to the overall success of the market share leader in that genre."

In other words, the more money other companies spend on their games, the more D&D sales are eventually made. Now, there are clearly issues of efficiency - not every dollar input to the market results in a dollar output in D&D sales; and there is a substantial time lag between input and output; and a certain amount of people are diverted from D&D to other games never to return. However, we believe very strongly that the net effect of the competition in the RPG genre is positive for D&D.

There it is. EQ isn't worth the time of the EQ audience because they already have what they want. EQ isn't worth the time of the D&D audience because they already have D&D, and D&D has the superior user network with superior support from all corners of the business. It's not about quality as most see it; it's about the network of users and their perceptions. Any attempt to damage or supplant D&D--as EQ does--will fail unless the folks in charge bother to account for this aspect.

 

[Krieg]

And some people that started gaming in the 70s still are hack-monsters.

Actually we prefer to be referred to as HackMasters!!

 

[Hawkshere]

The only problem with that particular theory, is that Ryan Dancy is supportive of the EQRPG product concept, and enthusiastically endorsed their effort. When you say that EQRPG is "attacking" D&D, you're drawing the box a bit too small, methinks.

Now, I personally agree that the compatibility of EQRPG to D&D is exaggerated in some circles. There's lots of portable bits and pieces, but mixing whole classes and such involves some real work on the DM's part. However, it's still clearly a d20 clone game - the only reason it lacks the d20 logo is licensing.

It doesn't require the D&D PHB to play, true enough. In this sense it is competing at some level with D&D. Just not enough that any of the principals had a problem with it. From what I read on this very board, WotC knew about this project before we did, and had no objections to the use of the OGL as opposed to d20 STL.

If someone who learns EQRPG as their first RPG (hypothetically) can turn around a play D&D at a con tourney without feeling completely lost (or vice-versa), then it can be argued that EQRPG players count as D&D network nodes. Same thing for Spycraft players, etc. So the whole network externalities idea can be used to argue in favor of EQRPG, depending on how tightly you box yourself in.., or don't.

 

[ced1106]

I can explain the sentiment against the EQRPG in two words: Network Externalities.

I can explain the sentiment for the EQRPG in two words: EVIL RULES! (;

Allow me to quote from one of the Dancey interviews:

I prefer a quote from the RPGnet forum: For better or worse, to drive sales of core books, companies must be regularly releasing support. Through the d20 / OGL license, WotC lets **other** companies take on the costs and risks of supporting **their** products for **absolutely nothing**. The result? Maximum profits for minimum R&D. Of course, WotC can't exactly say the equivalent of "we're gonna fire most of our staff and reprint stuff", so they come up with these buzzword-laden smokescreens.


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[Corinth]

I'm still not seeing what segment of the populace would pick up EQ over D&D.

 

[Belares]

I'm still not seeing what segment of the populace would pick up EQ over D&D.

Those that play the online game i would think.

I would play DnD over EQrpg and I play both right now(as well as the online game too). I really like the Eqrpg game, but you have to wait over 4 months to get the GmG..sheesh. Of course, with that said, we are getting along fine without it and look forward to seeing the book.

I think the dfferences in both games are apparent and yet if you understand the DnD (D20 systems) game, then the Eqrpgame will be easier to play.

 

[Hawkshere]

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what the intended market niche is either. But that doesn't mean it's not there, hehe...

My FLGS of choice also wondered who was going to play this game, so they only ordered 3 copies on the initial shipment. They were gone two hours. /shug

Personally, I think the jury is still out on this game until at least the GM's book is out. The setting and adventure products are also going to be interesting to see. I'm mostly curious to see if any non-EQ playing groups adopt this game and setting.

 

[Hand of Evil]

EverQuest is no different than Kingdoms of Kalmar (sp) it is promoting a world/setting. All the rules are really d20 3rd edition with some modification but overall the same game. It saves people time in building their own homebrewed.

It is a good looking book, a good read and like any other setting book wonderful to use as a referance.

 

[Corinth]

Those that play the online game i would think.

No, they aren't. The EQ users aren't motivated to play tabletop RPGs as a group because they don't want what tabletop gaming provides; they want what EQ provides. Those individuals that do deal with tabletop RPGs play D&D because D&D's gameplay is not EQ's gameplay. If they want EQ, they play online for reasons described above.