Well personally if I had to start newbie PCs at 1st, I would say "this adventure is for 1st level characters" - if the 'bad players' want in, they can make new PCs. Otherwise run for just the 1st levellers until they reach 5th level. 5e does not work well across the Tier 1 - Tier 2 divide.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Thoughts on how to run L1 characters with L6/L7 characters?
- Thread starter Toledo
- Start date
Ralif Redhammer
Legend
I have run with first level characters in a mid-tier campaign on a number of occasions. They do tend to level through those tough early levels pretty quickly. I generally have the monsters target the bigger threats and ignore the first level folks. Sometimes, the monster might shove or grapple them – there are things they can do to threaten them other than damage them.
AOE attacks, though, those can be a problem. In a fight with an adult dragon, I did allow the low-level folks to use their reaction to “drop prone” below the breath weapon’s AOE, avoiding the attack entirely but sacrificing their turn, because, as established, I’m a softie.
AOE attacks, though, those can be a problem. In a fight with an adult dragon, I did allow the low-level folks to use their reaction to “drop prone” below the breath weapon’s AOE, avoiding the attack entirely but sacrificing their turn, because, as established, I’m a softie.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
I just played in a game last night where there was a divide between tier 1 and 2, characters ranging from 3rd level to 7th level. We had no issues at all. Funnily enough, the 3rd- and 4th-level characters were the ones pushing the envelope in terms of the challenges. The rest of the group was extremely cautious. We even took on a CR 10 monster (a Deadly encounter) and defeated it through good teamwork and tactics with only one PC making death saving throws.
Now my 4th-level character is 5th level and one of my friends went from 3rd to 4th level. You catch up quick!
Now my 4th-level character is 5th level and one of my friends went from 3rd to 4th level. You catch up quick!
Swarmkeeper
Hero
The side quest idea is likely a good one. The party can certainly still uncover a few clues that might help them in the "big" picture part of the campaign while on these side quests.
Throwing a mixed group of enemies at them is also a solid idea. The higher level characters might still enjoy a cakewalk, but the lower level characters can feel useful.
Keep in mind that encounters don't need to level with the party - they will need to learn when to negotiate or run away. At the risk of rinsing and repeating, consider throwing another Salt Demon at them and telegraph that its a bad idea to fight and they need to figure out another way out of the encounter. Maybe this particular Salt Demon is distracted a bit by some other important task its trying to carry out for its boss and is not really looking to waste time and energy with an immediate fight. At best, you can award XP to the group for cleverly overcoming the challenge without resorting to combat. At worst, everyone is back to level 1.
Throwing a mixed group of enemies at them is also a solid idea. The higher level characters might still enjoy a cakewalk, but the lower level characters can feel useful.
Keep in mind that encounters don't need to level with the party - they will need to learn when to negotiate or run away. At the risk of rinsing and repeating, consider throwing another Salt Demon at them and telegraph that its a bad idea to fight and they need to figure out another way out of the encounter. Maybe this particular Salt Demon is distracted a bit by some other important task its trying to carry out for its boss and is not really looking to waste time and energy with an immediate fight. At best, you can award XP to the group for cleverly overcoming the challenge without resorting to combat. At worst, everyone is back to level 1.
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Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
Since the original PC group is now crippled (half the members dead), have some old forgotten foes re-appear seeking revenge. These foes don't know or care who the newbies are, they want to duke it out with the tough guys who beat 'em the last time 'round. The surviving players can grab equipment off the fallen, so when everybody starts at L1 next week they have mementoes of the first part of the campaign and a reason to adventure together (revenge!). Hopefully it won't look like you slew them on purpose for meta-game reasons.
What we used to do at my table back in the day (when this problem was more common - back before 3e) was to design adventures around the average party level instead of the max or min party level. From what you're describing you've got an average party level of a little over 3, so I'd probably throw them into a 3rd-4th level adventure together. You've got the right mix to make that work too - if your better players are the lower level ones they can possibly rise to a challenge that is a bit more than they could normally handle and it gives your not-as-good players a lower challenge where if they screw up a bit it won't hurt as much. (Though it sounds like your players might have to watch out for each other more than for the creatures).
I haven't tried it with 5e, but with the way monsters work in 5e I suspect it would work fine. (It would break for 4e out of the box and I suspect that 3e would also be problematic - but a group of 1st level PC should be able to hit and do enough damage to monsters that would challenge a 3rd level party - especially with some higher level spellcasting as backup).
(I actually love this whole story. The idea of a bumbling sorcerer and a not-so-bright barbarian on the road together accidentally killing all of their companions is already a setup for some kind of parody of a fantasy novel. Teaming up with a group of lower-level characters who might be more competent than they are is just the icing on the cake.)
I haven't tried it with 5e, but with the way monsters work in 5e I suspect it would work fine. (It would break for 4e out of the box and I suspect that 3e would also be problematic - but a group of 1st level PC should be able to hit and do enough damage to monsters that would challenge a 3rd level party - especially with some higher level spellcasting as backup).
(I actually love this whole story. The idea of a bumbling sorcerer and a not-so-bright barbarian on the road together accidentally killing all of their companions is already a setup for some kind of parody of a fantasy novel. Teaming up with a group of lower-level characters who might be more competent than they are is just the icing on the cake.)
Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. I'm going to consider all these things and come up with a plan!
I'll let everyone know what happens. Just so you all know, Mac Sim (the dwarf barbarian, yeah I know the name is stupid, but it was his choice) had officially been the result of two character deaths so far. Earlier, there was a large Carrion Crawler Mother stuck behind a door and it couldn't get out. The hope was that the party would be smart enough to hit it from afar with ranged stuff. It was much higher level than the party, but easy to kill with some brains (not many).
Well the barbarian decided he had to get close (within 10') to throw his javelin. Well, then he is within the Mother's 10' range and she whacked him. One of the other NPC's, being of noble character, stepped in over Mac Sim's body trying to protect Mac Sim. Well, the Mother critical hit the protector, and he went down. Then the bard had to get in before his best friend (the protector) got killed. The bard eventually got killed....all because Mac Sim wouldn't throw his javelin from 20' away.
You might be interested in the direction of Mac Sim's character...here are two e-mails I sent out this week for Mac Sim....
At night, Mac Sim has had a very bad day. He’s seen two of his party die, one partially due to his mistake, and seen another party member leave in anger. Mac Sim falls asleep in a deep slumber.
During his dreams, he vividly remembers his dwarven mother. Mac Sim was very young when she died, and this is perhaps the last thing he remembers of her before he was orphaned from his dwarven clan. In this remembrance, he sees in his mind his mother singing the prophecy song of Thurkam the Wanderer to him as a child. In this prophecy, the Wanderer will be left without Dwarven kin and clan. He shall go through the world without knowing the splendors of the dwarven undermountains.
Over time, he will be tested many times and be placed in many horrific situations. He will have many great and legendary items, and will lose many of them…but he will not lose heart. He will travel with humans and (gasp) even Elves, and will consider them friends, yet will lose many of them to evil and accidents. Yet still Thurkam never loses heart, even as he mourns their deaths. He will suffer and wander, always doing good and fighting the greatest evils, with others doubting his honor and even his sanity, but he trudges onwards.
The ballad of Thurkam pronounces his adventures, which includes eventually riding to battle on the back of a dragon and being honored by the King of the Elves! His foes are numerous, which include dwarven mages (!) and other dwarven traitors, foul slithering snake creatures, foes with limbs removed, a legion of crossbowmen, flying warriors, and angry sisters of power. Eventually Thurkam will have to face demons and devils in combat in a realm of darkness, but he shall prevail! In the end of his travels, he eventually finds evidence of his dwarven clan and becomes its greatest legend.
Sweating, Mac Sim wakes up. Upon reflection, he thinks of the following things:
-The Ballad of Thurkam the Wanderer is a powerful prophecy story that even Mac Sim knows of, even though he was only raised with some outsiders knowledge of dwarves.
-The similarities are too many to discount.
Without kin and clan – check
Never seeing the dwarven undermountains – check
Losing a dwarven item of great power (Shield of the Dwarven Watch) and the Maul of Pain – check
Dwarven traitors – check
Dwarven mage (Blarion Axehandle) – check
Foes with limbs removed – the Handless forces
Snake creatures – the Yuan-ti
Realm of darkness with demons and devils sounds like the Dwimmer Dwelling you’ve heard discussed
Mac Sim comes to the realization that he is Thurkam the Wanderer! He must travel the world listening and following the prophecy of his own story! He must especially let other dwarves know that he is the fulfillment of the Ballad of Thurkam the Wanderer!
In addition, Thurkam has received a clue….his clan is not from the Skullhammer Mountains, as those are the mountains where the Dwarves live next to the High Elves, and Thurkam knows they have a good relationship, and they work together well, so Dwarves/Elves wouldn’t be a shocking surprise.
When the story continues Friday, the timeline will advance into August (a month later). During that time, your character will have become much less aimless and much more focused on his destiny. The Dwimmer Dwelling is your destiny. Play up the fact that you are Thurkam the Wanderer. You may even wish to stop mentioning your true name of Mac Sim.
There are going to be extreme reactions. Some people will think you are crazy and will want to avoid you. Some will want to attack you for thinking you are the hero of legends. Some will be in awe of you and scared of you. Some will aid you immensely. You will not be forgotten wherever you go….imagine if you were in the Middle Ages and said you were King Arthur….the emotions would be extreme. Remember that Thurkam the Wanderer is exactly that, a wanderer, explorer, hero, but not a leader. He passes through the world, but isn’t a leader. He is to be a force of nature affecting the world. Leave politics for others. Imagine a forceful barbarian with just a touch of pure paladin attitude, but in a chaotic way. Thurkam would be Chaotic Good in actions.
The question that is going to be determined is if you are Thurkam truly, are you crazy or are you an imposter? That has yet to be determined….but Mac Sim thinks he is.
PS – use the dagger with the cloudy and image shifting pommel stone. It will be powerful, and will aid you. There are role playing elements that will be the best if you use it. It’s side effects would be mostly abated by someone who truly believes they are Thorkam the Wanderer. If you do not believe that, the dagger is not something you wish to play with.
I'll let everyone know what happens. Just so you all know, Mac Sim (the dwarf barbarian, yeah I know the name is stupid, but it was his choice) had officially been the result of two character deaths so far. Earlier, there was a large Carrion Crawler Mother stuck behind a door and it couldn't get out. The hope was that the party would be smart enough to hit it from afar with ranged stuff. It was much higher level than the party, but easy to kill with some brains (not many).
Well the barbarian decided he had to get close (within 10') to throw his javelin. Well, then he is within the Mother's 10' range and she whacked him. One of the other NPC's, being of noble character, stepped in over Mac Sim's body trying to protect Mac Sim. Well, the Mother critical hit the protector, and he went down. Then the bard had to get in before his best friend (the protector) got killed. The bard eventually got killed....all because Mac Sim wouldn't throw his javelin from 20' away.
You might be interested in the direction of Mac Sim's character...here are two e-mails I sent out this week for Mac Sim....
At night, Mac Sim has had a very bad day. He’s seen two of his party die, one partially due to his mistake, and seen another party member leave in anger. Mac Sim falls asleep in a deep slumber.
During his dreams, he vividly remembers his dwarven mother. Mac Sim was very young when she died, and this is perhaps the last thing he remembers of her before he was orphaned from his dwarven clan. In this remembrance, he sees in his mind his mother singing the prophecy song of Thurkam the Wanderer to him as a child. In this prophecy, the Wanderer will be left without Dwarven kin and clan. He shall go through the world without knowing the splendors of the dwarven undermountains.
Over time, he will be tested many times and be placed in many horrific situations. He will have many great and legendary items, and will lose many of them…but he will not lose heart. He will travel with humans and (gasp) even Elves, and will consider them friends, yet will lose many of them to evil and accidents. Yet still Thurkam never loses heart, even as he mourns their deaths. He will suffer and wander, always doing good and fighting the greatest evils, with others doubting his honor and even his sanity, but he trudges onwards.
The ballad of Thurkam pronounces his adventures, which includes eventually riding to battle on the back of a dragon and being honored by the King of the Elves! His foes are numerous, which include dwarven mages (!) and other dwarven traitors, foul slithering snake creatures, foes with limbs removed, a legion of crossbowmen, flying warriors, and angry sisters of power. Eventually Thurkam will have to face demons and devils in combat in a realm of darkness, but he shall prevail! In the end of his travels, he eventually finds evidence of his dwarven clan and becomes its greatest legend.
Sweating, Mac Sim wakes up. Upon reflection, he thinks of the following things:
-The Ballad of Thurkam the Wanderer is a powerful prophecy story that even Mac Sim knows of, even though he was only raised with some outsiders knowledge of dwarves.
-The similarities are too many to discount.
Without kin and clan – check
Never seeing the dwarven undermountains – check
Losing a dwarven item of great power (Shield of the Dwarven Watch) and the Maul of Pain – check
Dwarven traitors – check
Dwarven mage (Blarion Axehandle) – check
Foes with limbs removed – the Handless forces
Snake creatures – the Yuan-ti
Realm of darkness with demons and devils sounds like the Dwimmer Dwelling you’ve heard discussed
Mac Sim comes to the realization that he is Thurkam the Wanderer! He must travel the world listening and following the prophecy of his own story! He must especially let other dwarves know that he is the fulfillment of the Ballad of Thurkam the Wanderer!
In addition, Thurkam has received a clue….his clan is not from the Skullhammer Mountains, as those are the mountains where the Dwarves live next to the High Elves, and Thurkam knows they have a good relationship, and they work together well, so Dwarves/Elves wouldn’t be a shocking surprise.
When the story continues Friday, the timeline will advance into August (a month later). During that time, your character will have become much less aimless and much more focused on his destiny. The Dwimmer Dwelling is your destiny. Play up the fact that you are Thurkam the Wanderer. You may even wish to stop mentioning your true name of Mac Sim.
There are going to be extreme reactions. Some people will think you are crazy and will want to avoid you. Some will want to attack you for thinking you are the hero of legends. Some will be in awe of you and scared of you. Some will aid you immensely. You will not be forgotten wherever you go….imagine if you were in the Middle Ages and said you were King Arthur….the emotions would be extreme. Remember that Thurkam the Wanderer is exactly that, a wanderer, explorer, hero, but not a leader. He passes through the world, but isn’t a leader. He is to be a force of nature affecting the world. Leave politics for others. Imagine a forceful barbarian with just a touch of pure paladin attitude, but in a chaotic way. Thurkam would be Chaotic Good in actions.
The question that is going to be determined is if you are Thurkam truly, are you crazy or are you an imposter? That has yet to be determined….but Mac Sim thinks he is.
PS – use the dagger with the cloudy and image shifting pommel stone. It will be powerful, and will aid you. There are role playing elements that will be the best if you use it. It’s side effects would be mostly abated by someone who truly believes they are Thorkam the Wanderer. If you do not believe that, the dagger is not something you wish to play with.
pming
Legend
Hiya!
You guys are too forgiving as DM's!
In my 1e/HM campaign, you die, you start at level 1. However, I do use/allow the Hackmaster rules for having Protege's (sort of like having a 'side-character'; the main PC can 'donate' some of the XP that he gets to the protege to help with leveling up...it's more complex that than, Hackmaster 4th after all, but that's basics of it). So a player shouldn't really be without a 'backup PC' at any point in the game, and that other PC shouldn't be at extreme ends of a level spread.
That said...we found that level 1 and 2 in 5e go by so ridiculously fast that they are almost pointless. We've had it where we started new PC's and after a half hour of playing they had attained enough XP for everyone to hit level 2. In *30 minutes of play*! O_O Usually it takes at least twice that (1 hour), but usually not more than 2 hours to hit level 2. It's not inconceivable to hit level 3 at the end of a 5 hour session, really.
Owing to that rapid advance to level 3 I implemented the "Starting PC's can start at your last PC, -2 levels, maximum starting level 3". So as soon as the Player has a PC at level 5 or higher, they CAN make a new PC at level 3. This has rarely happened in my 5e games though. My players usually prefer to start at level 1 regardless (bless their little hard-core hearts!).
IF everyone at your table is still hard set on level 1 PC's regardless, I'd just play as normal. This may result in a multiple of dead level 1 PC's before one "sticks"...and, IMNSHO, this is a good thing! Levels have been flipped over on their heads since ye olden days of yore. Back in the early 80's for example, if someone brought their PC from another campaign and that PC was an 8th level Ranger...that was impressive. It was something to be proud of. It was something that was earned and you know the player really knows this PC as he's probably been playing him for a year or more. Nowadays "PC Levels" are not seen as something that is really 'earned' or that a player really has to worry about...gaining levels is expected. A PC's level now has no bearing on a players actual capability as a player (in terms of everything; rules knowledge, RP'ing skill, overall campaign play experience, etc). Nowadays a PC's "level" is simply a measure of what "rule-power-level" the current session is set at. But that's just me lamenting the old ways.
My Suggestion: Just play. Level 1 and 2 go by very fast. If the PC dies, it takes all of 17 minutes to make another 1st level PC. Eventually one will survive and yer off to the races!
^_^
Paul L. Ming
You guys are too forgiving as DM's!
In my 1e/HM campaign, you die, you start at level 1. However, I do use/allow the Hackmaster rules for having Protege's (sort of like having a 'side-character'; the main PC can 'donate' some of the XP that he gets to the protege to help with leveling up...it's more complex that than, Hackmaster 4th after all, but that's basics of it). So a player shouldn't really be without a 'backup PC' at any point in the game, and that other PC shouldn't be at extreme ends of a level spread.
That said...we found that level 1 and 2 in 5e go by so ridiculously fast that they are almost pointless. We've had it where we started new PC's and after a half hour of playing they had attained enough XP for everyone to hit level 2. In *30 minutes of play*! O_O Usually it takes at least twice that (1 hour), but usually not more than 2 hours to hit level 2. It's not inconceivable to hit level 3 at the end of a 5 hour session, really.
Owing to that rapid advance to level 3 I implemented the "Starting PC's can start at your last PC, -2 levels, maximum starting level 3". So as soon as the Player has a PC at level 5 or higher, they CAN make a new PC at level 3. This has rarely happened in my 5e games though. My players usually prefer to start at level 1 regardless (bless their little hard-core hearts!).
IF everyone at your table is still hard set on level 1 PC's regardless, I'd just play as normal. This may result in a multiple of dead level 1 PC's before one "sticks"...and, IMNSHO, this is a good thing! Levels have been flipped over on their heads since ye olden days of yore. Back in the early 80's for example, if someone brought their PC from another campaign and that PC was an 8th level Ranger...that was impressive. It was something to be proud of. It was something that was earned and you know the player really knows this PC as he's probably been playing him for a year or more. Nowadays "PC Levels" are not seen as something that is really 'earned' or that a player really has to worry about...gaining levels is expected. A PC's level now has no bearing on a players actual capability as a player (in terms of everything; rules knowledge, RP'ing skill, overall campaign play experience, etc). Nowadays a PC's "level" is simply a measure of what "rule-power-level" the current session is set at. But that's just me lamenting the old ways.
My Suggestion: Just play. Level 1 and 2 go by very fast. If the PC dies, it takes all of 17 minutes to make another 1st level PC. Eventually one will survive and yer off to the races!
^_^
Paul L. Ming
As a side note, some of Mac Sim's highlights when I'm DMing. I kid you not, he was not playing this Mac Sim as an intentionally bumbling dwarf. I made all the characters have an intelligence 12, because I didn't want humans who make informed decisions gaming the system.
In real life, Mac Sim's player has multiple doctorates in molecular biology and I forget what else.
You're not going to believe these things weren't done with him trying to play a dumb character. For some of them, he argued 20 minutes saying that was the smart thing to do.
-mouthing off (as a L5) to an Ancient Blue Wyrm Dragon, who melted his Dwarven artifact
-fell into the same pit twice (second time he could physically see it and still ran into it saying it was the shortest path)
-when a 15 year old dwarf boy (L0) challenged him for Mac Sim's bad attitude, Mac Sim took up the challenge, and using his Dwarven Artifact shield (which he knew was against the rules of a challenge cause the kid had nothing) killed the kid...who happened to be the son of a clan thane. Rather than knocking him out.
-When they were passing beneath an acid rainfall trap, forgot to mention that he was going to direct the coated (protected) shield away from his teammates, so his teammates almost got a face full of acid.
-When meeting a party of adventurers who were scared of them, during discussions said "Screw you Paki (the other party) and didn't understand why Paki's party attacked them. This literally was a 30 minute discussion, and the player said "I say that to people all the time in real life and they don't attack me". We all tried to explain saying that in a bar and see what would happen.
-Multiple party deaths to him.
-After angering off the dragon, asking the dragon for a replacement item the next day.
-the character was introduced as an orphan who only had three friends in the world. The DM (me) dragged Mac Sim and his three friends into a big fight including the main heroes. The DM kills the three friends during the battle. After the battle, Mac Sim goes up to the heroes who saved him and asks if they need help....forgetting about the three dead friends. He remembers two hours later after the local constabulary drags away the three bodies. Oh well, says Mac Sim.
-He has insulted the local blacksmith/secret dwarven sorcerer so that his party was banned from buying weapons at the best shop in town.
-I've forgotten more, but you get the picture.
And let me repeat, he is not intentionally trying to play dumb.
In real life, Mac Sim's player has multiple doctorates in molecular biology and I forget what else.
You're not going to believe these things weren't done with him trying to play a dumb character. For some of them, he argued 20 minutes saying that was the smart thing to do.
-mouthing off (as a L5) to an Ancient Blue Wyrm Dragon, who melted his Dwarven artifact
-fell into the same pit twice (second time he could physically see it and still ran into it saying it was the shortest path)
-when a 15 year old dwarf boy (L0) challenged him for Mac Sim's bad attitude, Mac Sim took up the challenge, and using his Dwarven Artifact shield (which he knew was against the rules of a challenge cause the kid had nothing) killed the kid...who happened to be the son of a clan thane.
Rather than knocking him out.-When they were passing beneath an acid rainfall trap, forgot to mention that he was going to direct the coated (protected) shield away from his teammates, so his teammates almost got a face full of acid.
-When meeting a party of adventurers who were scared of them, during discussions said "Screw you Paki (the other party) and didn't understand why Paki's party attacked them. This literally was a 30 minute discussion, and the player said "I say that to people all the time in real life and they don't attack me". We all tried to explain saying that in a bar and see what would happen.
-Multiple party deaths to him.
-After angering off the dragon, asking the dragon for a replacement item the next day.
-the character was introduced as an orphan who only had three friends in the world. The DM (me) dragged Mac Sim and his three friends into a big fight including the main heroes. The DM kills the three friends during the battle. After the battle, Mac Sim goes up to the heroes who saved him and asks if they need help....forgetting about the three dead friends. He remembers two hours later after the local constabulary drags away the three bodies. Oh well, says Mac Sim.
-He has insulted the local blacksmith/secret dwarven sorcerer so that his party was banned from buying weapons at the best shop in town.
-I've forgotten more, but you get the picture.
And let me repeat, he is not intentionally trying to play dumb.
pming
Legend
Hiya!
Well, [MENTION=6881873]Toledo[/MENTION], all I can say is I have friends that fit that description. Got nothing but A's in school and high-GPA in College/University (back when college/uni was actually useful...). But ask them a question that doesn't rely on something the memorized? Well, lets just say that we once convinced on of our friends like this that ice cream was a meat product. Seriously. Ice CREAM. A MEAT product. ... ... ...
Perfect examples of "Int 12, Wis 5" if I ever saw it. Sounds like that Mac guy has a good Intelligence, but a horrible Wisdom.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Well, [MENTION=6881873]Toledo[/MENTION], all I can say is I have friends that fit that description. Got nothing but A's in school and high-GPA in College/University (back when college/uni was actually useful...). But ask them a question that doesn't rely on something the memorized? Well, lets just say that we once convinced on of our friends like this that ice cream was a meat product. Seriously. Ice CREAM. A MEAT product. ... ... ...
Perfect examples of "Int 12, Wis 5" if I ever saw it. Sounds like that Mac guy has a good Intelligence, but a horrible Wisdom.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
