D&D 5E Thoughts on Improving Martials

[Steampunkette]

So I had an idea a few pages back I'd like to revisit...

Each Background gives the player a Reputation Value in a set of different types of Reputation. Could change the term "Reputation" to better fit different settings, it's just a placeholder term, right now, because I'm tired. Other options could be "Presentation" or "Assumptions" or "Character" or whatever.

Reputations function kind of like your standard Attributes, except instead of being measured on a 20 point scale with modifiers every 2 points, it's -just- the modifiers. Ranging from 0 to +5. Just need to find 5-6 different Reputation angles to go on. I'm thinking 2 positive, 2 negative, 1-2 "Neutral" trait(s).

Every background gives a total of 11 points pre-assigned to the different traits. At level 1 you can modify your background by a number of points equal to your Charisma Modifier. So if you're a Half-Elf Bard with an 18 Charisma you can move 4 points around in your Reputations, making you more flexible in that regard.

Every level gained, a character can change their reputation by 1. Moving one point of reputation to another type of reputation to represent their reputation changing. Other things can allow you to change your reputation by spreading rumors/stories/songs about your character... You can also make a Performance Skill Check to temporarily take on the point allotment of a different background or character. Doing so allows you to use that reputation's trait scores with your proficiency bonus for a "Scene" or until you give up the ruse. Opposed by Perception or Insight.

When you would normally do a Social Skill you instead roll your Reputations instead of a skill check with proficiency always added on to represent your reputation "Growing" with your character level. With the reputation being applied to the situation.

Sincerity: Honesty or Seriousness
Pluck: Playfulness or Courage
Violence: Readiness to engage in combat.
Temper: Displays of Ire or Anger.
Reverence: Piousness or Deference

So the Folk Hero Background might start out with:
Sincerity: 4
Pluck: 3
Violence: 2
Temper: 1
Reverence: 1

A person with a Charisma mod of 3 could adjust 3 points of that. Maybe moving 2 points of Violence and 1 point of Temper to Reverence, giving them a 4 in that score. Or a 3 in Reverence and a 4 in Pluck.

And at level 2, they could move 1 point from any of those traits to any other trait they choose, showing how their reputation has changed.

Meanwhile a Bard who fancies themself an Actor could walk into the Thieves Guild, roll a Perform check, and pretend to have the Criminal Background. Changing their entire Reputation tree... so long as they act it out. Of course a Fighter could also roll that perform check but might have a harder time pulling it off.

And someone who rolls a good enough Perception Check would recognize the ruse. Because that's skill vs skill.

... It probably needs a lot of work. But this is where I'm at, right now. And after going over the idea of the Bard using Perform I'm really thinking it should be "Character Presentation" rather than Reputation, or something similar.

 

[Quickleaf]

Ohhh... I thought you were referring to the idea of maneuvers by school, as has come up previously in this thread. I apologize.

That's my mistake, Quickleaf.

I'm keenly interested in your noncombat idea, though I'm not sure I grasp what you're carrying and where.

Oh, I totally missed that part of the conversation.

So I should have been clearer: I think you can totally surmount the "combat maneuver" issue you have. There's no shortage of ideas there between suggestions here, your own ideas, Level Up, PF2e, and so forth. Not that it's not a design challenge, but for me the far greater challenge is conceiving what the non-combat mechanics might look like (without rewriting 5e).

For some context, I've been "armchair designing" my own Fighter class for years – mainly for my own enjoyment and to fix issues that I perceive with that class (fully recognizing that survey data shows I'm in the minority). First was The Warrior and then more recently a Fighter rewrite (not sure why that second link has my text all greyed out in dark mode – I made sure to remove color formatting from the post ).

The issue with creating those "8 Schools" would be that every one of them would just translate to a set of skills.

Infiltration as Stealth and Deception, maybe Disguise kit. Leadership as Persuade and Intimidation, maybe Deception... etc etc etc.

Because skills are meant to be 5e's version of 2e's noncombat proficiencies -plus- all of the old Thieves Skills put together in one comprehensive "Everything that isn't combat" setup, it's damnably hard to break it apart in a nonmagical way.

I think if you're willing to get a little funky with your design and think outside of the box, that's a surmountable issue.

Leadership as an example... yes that's skills, but it can also be...

1. changing starting NPC reaction (Hostile, Indifferent, Friendly, or even more precise categories) based on reputation & circumstance (whereas Charisma-based skills work within the assumption that the DM solely defines a NPC's reaction)
2. helping others (Help action or some variation thereof) even across great distances or across extend time periods... perhaps translating your success to another via a "lead by example" feature (useful in exploration, extended negotiation, and skill challenge type scenes)
3. acquiring a sidekick or getting narrative control over determining when a NPC or animal companion transforms into a sidekick (merging d20 Leadership feat with sidekick rules from Tasha's)
4. a feature allowing you to call upon and command your henchmen (e.g. torchbearer, shield-bearer, man-at-arms, animal tender) using concentration or downtime (tapping some of the ideas in the OSR)
5. calling upon aid of friendly NPCs who you've previously performed a quest for, attaching a quantity of gold & scope of services that increases as you level (the d20 Star Wars Noble class had something very much like this IIRC)
6. boosting crew morale on ships (the old AD&D Leadership nonweapon prof from Spelljammer basically did this) – other vehicular / crew boosts could be incorporated into this besides just morale
7. a boost to certain downtime actions associated with rulership or governing an organization / group (domain management "lite")

I think it's also worth noting that there are still game elements without clear mechanical implementation in 5e: Etiquette, Ventriloquism, Rope Use, and Decipher Script come to mind. For instance, I've seen a DM rule courtly etiquette as a History check, another DM tying it to the noble background, and another letting it just be role-play.

For instance, maybe Etiquette becomes part of the Leadership "martial school" (for lack of a better term), while Rope Use becomes part of the Campaigner "martial school", and Ventriloquism becomes part of the Infiltrator "martial school."

 

[Azzy]

Obviously, the solution is to make every class as complex to play as a fully optimised wizard or sorlockadin. That's what everyone who plays D&D secretly wants.

Re-read the thread. Because that's not what's going on here.

Also, apparently people wanted fighters to do more interesting stuff since at least 2e's The Complete Fighter's Handbook.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Re-read the thread. Because that's not what's going on here.

Also, apparently people wanted fighters to do more interesting stuff since at least 2e's The Complete Fighter's Handbook.

I would at least like variety for the fighter, barbarian and rogue in combat and the former two need more to do out of combat.
with the monk, I really want to upgrade as I can kinda see where it could go and that version seems awe inspiering.

 

[Einlanzer0]

I agree that it's something of an issue, although I think the problem is as much that casters & spell choices are too convoluted as it is that martials are too simple (one reason we need a witch and/or shaman class!) I also always use feats, which mitigates it to a large degree.

Otherwise, I've done a smattering of things partially motivated by wanting to add depth and partially to rebalance some aspects of the core rules (some of which feed into this problem):

-Added a tactical improvisation skill tied to Int and also add a bonus proficiency for higher Int, which helps add "tactical gameplay" options for any character with higher Int (and makes Int less of a dump stat). Note: while any class can use this, martial classes get more practical benefit from it. I like incentivizing smart fighters =P

-reorganized knowledge skills so that more classes could get practical benefit from them more often.

-separated grappling from athletics and expanded it quite a bit to make it more dynamic.

-use a much more robust homebrew weapon/armor custom table that adds a lot of properties and makes weapon choices more impactful (I think this one is big - having a simple/underdeveloped weapon/armor table is a major contributor to this perception.)

-use a homebrew set of rules (someone else authored) for secondary and tertiary ability scores that have a variety of uses in and out of combat: courage, sanity, allure, luck, style, wit.

-utilize more items with spell-like properties and diversify magic items as much as possible.

I think the next thing I want to tackle is working in craftsmanship & masterwork mechanics and setting up rules to give a better feeling of ownership for martial character's gear.

 

[Rabulias]

-use a much more robust homebrew weapon/armor custom table that adds a lot of properties and makes weapon choices more impactful (I think this one is big - having a simple/underdeveloped weapon/armor table is a major contributor to this perception.)

Care to share more details of this? I go back and forth on simple vs detailed weapons, so I would be interested in seeing what you have, and I know a few other posters here have lamented that official 5e did not provide this. Thanks!

 

[Weiley31]

Like I said: Allow Martials to learn maybe two or three of the Battle Master's Combat Maneuvers. Only just allow them to stay at D6 or upgrade it to a D8. The Battle Master is the only one who can fully max their Combat Maneuvers dice or gain the amount they can compared to regular martials.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Whenever a Fighter hits a foe, the player may do push ups. They deal an extra 2 damage for each push up they do.