D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Rune]

But then you get this text in the DMG (Chapter 2 - Running the Game):

When to Call for a Check​

An important time to call for a Wisdom (Perception) check is when another creature is using the Stealth skill to hide. Noticing a hidden creature is never trivially easy or automatically impossible, so characters can always try Wisdom (Perception) checks to do so.

Using Passive Perception. Sometimes, asking players to make Wisdom (Perception) checks for their characters tips them off that there’s something they should be searching for, giving them a clue you’d rather they didn’t have. In those circumstances, use characters’ Passive Perception scores instead.


Read the first paragraph. So, is the DM calling for the players to roll, or are the players choosing to roll? It seems both.

Then the second paragraph. If there's a creature hiding in the room, the DM starts using passive Perception... which indicates that, all of sudden, that becomes relevant for Stealth again.

The first paragraph doesn’t mention players at all. It says that the characters can try to make the check. And the second paragraph clarifies that the DM can choose to keep that check secret from the players by using their characters’ Passive Perception score for the check.

 

[MerricB]

The first paragraph doesn’t mention players at all. It says that the characters can try to make the check. And the second paragraph clarifies that the DM can choose to keep that check secret from the players by using their characters’ Passive Perception score for the check.

It's a bit weird, because this is the Hide Action description...
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself."

So, the player is concealing themselves from the GM?

I'm not entirely sure you can read too much into the split between player and characters.

 

[Rune]

It's a bit weird, because this is the Hide Action description...
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself."

So, the player is concealing themselves from the GM?

I'm not entirely sure you can read too much into the split between player and characters.

From the PHB Rules Glossary:
““You.” The game’s rules—in this glossary and elsewhere—often talk about something happening to you in the game world. That “you” refers to the creature or object that the rule applies to in a particular moment of play. For example, the “you” in the Prone condition is a creature that currently has that condition.”

That said, the DMG consistently uses “you” to mean the DM. It also frequently uses both “players” and “characters,” each in separate contexts.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I have lost the hope that you can actually write stealth rules that make sense in any situation. Are 2024 rules great? Don't think so.

Here is what I made out of it:

Beat DC 15? Invisible. Even if only concealed by light obscurement or 3/4 cover.
Beat passive perception? Unniticed as long as you are invisible (due to heavy obscurement or total cover)

For initiative that means: you are surprised and roll initiative with disadvantage if your passive perception is lower than any stealth checks as long as no threat is clearly visible. (Either all have beaten DC 15 or are well hidden behind total cover).

Creatures that rolled higher than DC 15 stealth may roll initiative with advantage, except when PCs actively guard something specific (the only opening to your camp.) Then passive perception is also relevant. Or even an active check.

 

[aiouh]

The words “incomplete and half-baked” keep coming to mind.

The rules for entering Stealth have this massive hole where you apparently can do it if you have three quarters cover, but not if any monster has line of sight to you. Which, to me, is a contradiction.

Fig. a

Fig. b

Fig. c

Actually I would argue the opposite, the new wording covers a surprising amount of edge cases and makes Hiding in combat a lot less dependent on DM Fiat which is a huge boon for rogues. Also Invisible condition is lost really fast, because Invisible has also been changed in 2024 and worth a reread. There's a lot to criticize about 24, but this fix has been only good for characters that care about stealth actions as it provides clear rules.

 

[Bae'zel]

Yeah I'm getting déja vu here. Like back in the Fall when every sub-Reddit and forum had endless arguments about the new Stealth rules.

Just when I think I've totally nailed it, a new thread pops up and makes me second guess myself, doubt myself.

Gotta note this down once again.

PHB, Pg. 19:

• The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. (good so far).
• When you try to hide, you take the Hide action. (again, good so far, I interpret "you" as the character, not me as a person because DUH).

PHB, Pg. 368:

• ...you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check (simple enough, base line difficulty),
• while you're Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, (yep, makes sense, you have to have shadowy or obstructing conditions to hide, can't just vanish into thin air),
• and you must be out of any enemy's line of sight (got it, you can't just duck behind cover or vanish into thin air while someone is looking straight at you);
• if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you (some dialogue between player and DM, good stuff)
• On a successful check you have the Invisible condition (that means you get advantage on initiative checks, can't be targetted by on sight effects from people you're hiding from, and if somehow someone makes an attack at you they get disadvantage, got it)

-Make note of your check's total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check (got it, anyone actively searching for you uses your Stealth check as the DC, makes sense, opposed checks and all, I assume that this applies to Passive Perception checks too)

• The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs (ie, you're no longer 'Hidden" in this scene)
• you make a sound louder than a whisper (got it), an enemy finds you (got it, one of the bad guys finds you, it isn't a stretch of the imagination that their colleagues know too), you make an attack roll (makes sense), or you cast a spell with a Verbal component (yep, magic is loud, unsubtle and vulgar).

So far I don't see where the confusion lies. If anything, it makes me wonder what sorts of class abilities, spells and magic items allow characters (or monsters) to find exemptions from some of these.

I'll have to go back to the start of the thread to find out what is so confusing to people about this. I don't get it, it seems pretty straightforward to me.

Unless this is a "but DM's discretion!! That could be really bad" which is not a game problem, but a people problem.

Then again, if you don't like the rules, I guess it would be pretty easy to change them. Make it work like a video game or Skyrim, where you can stealth "poof" vanish into thin air if you want.

 

[Bae'zel]

The rules for entering Stealth have this massive hole where you apparently can do it if you have three quarters cover, but not if any monster has line of sight to you. Which, to me, is a contradiction.

Okay so you cannot hide if someone is staring right at you. Got it.

But, to hide in the first place, you need something to hide behind. You need a pillar, half wall, piece of furniture, SOMETHING to hide behind in the first place?

How is this confusing or a "massive hole"?

 

[abirdcall]

Yeah I'm getting déja vu here. Like back in the Fall when every sub-Reddit and forum had endless arguments about the new Stealth rules.

Just when I think I've totally nailed it, a new thread pops up and makes me second guess myself, doubt myself.

Gotta note this down once again.

PHB, Pg. 19:

• The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. (good so far).
• When you try to hide, you take the Hide action. (again, good so far, I interpret "you" as the character, not me as a person because DUH).

PHB, Pg. 368:

• ...you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check (simple enough, base line difficulty),
• while you're Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, (yep, makes sense, you have to have shadowy or obstructing conditions to hide, can't just vanish into thin air),
• and you must be out of any enemy's line of sight (got it, you can't just duck behind cover or vanish into thin air while someone is looking straight at you);
• if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you (some dialogue between player and DM, good stuff)
• On a successful check you have the Invisible condition (that means you get advantage on initiative checks, can't be targetted by on sight effects from people you're hiding from, and if somehow someone makes an attack at you they get disadvantage, got it)

-Make note of your check's total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check (got it, anyone actively searching for you uses your Stealth check as the DC, makes sense, opposed checks and all, I assume that this applies to Passive Perception checks too)

• The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs (ie, you're no longer 'Hidden" in this scene)
• you make a sound louder than a whisper (got it), an enemy finds you (got it, one of the bad guys finds you, it isn't a stretch of the imagination that their colleagues know too), you make an attack roll (makes sense), or you cast a spell with a Verbal component (yep, magic is loud, unsubtle and vulgar).

So far I don't see where the confusion lies. If anything, it makes me wonder what sorts of class abilities, spells and magic items allow characters (or monsters) to find exemptions from some of these.

I'll have to go back to the start of the thread to find out what is so confusing to people about this. I don't get it, it seems pretty straightforward to me.

Unless this is a "but DM's discretion!! That could be really bad" which is not a game problem, but a people problem.

Then again, if you don't like the rules, I guess it would be pretty easy to change them. Make it work like a video game or Skyrim, where you can stealth "poof" vanish into thin air if you want.

There is one aspect of the rules I highly dislike. That the roll happens first and the result is noted for the future. So if the character hides at the start of the exploration scene and then later on there is a question of whether they are found they get to use the check from long ago which was probably a 20 because why not take 1 minute to hide well. The check should be redone whenever something has changed.

The other reason I don't like this is because I believe rolls should only be made when the outcome is in doubt, it is interesting, and there are consequences for failure. Rolling for stealth when there are no creatures around is boring.

This rule is written for stealth during combat, not exploration.

The main point of confusion is the 'find.' Is that only for having a perception result higher than the stealth result? Or could it also occur because the creature looks in your direction and you are not behind cover or obscured?

For the former issue I have the roll happen at an appropriately dramatic moment.

For the latter I give myself room to make a judgement call.

Doing both of these makes the rule work very well for me.

 

[Bae'zel]

The other reason I don't like this is because I believe rolls should only be made when the outcome is in doubt, it is interesting, and there are consequences for failure. Rolling for stealth when there are no creatures around is boring.

But… why is the character rolling stealth when there are no creatures around? Who are they hiding from? If they’re hiding in anticipation of enemies approaching (eg to set up an ambush) how is that not interesting, nor have consequences of failure?

I don’t understand.

 

[Selas]

But… why is the character rolling stealth when there are no creatures around? Who are they hiding from? If they’re hiding in anticipation of enemies approaching (eg to set up an ambush) how is that not interesting, nor have consequences of failure?

I don’t understand.

Exactly. In a case like this, they can hide and hold the roll until enemies approach their location, I would then have the PC do the stealth check to see if they're successfully hidden or not.

I really do not understand the issue; it's not rocket science