D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[MerricB]

If that is true, why wouldn't there be facing, there is no specific rule that says there isn't, though there's is a generalization rule that it is in the game.

The 2014 Hiding rules had this text:

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen." (Chapter 7, Using Ability Scores, Hiding section).

It's one of the passages they deleted from 2024.

The 2024 rules do say that you can't hide if someone has line-of-sight to you, and the rules defining line-of-sight make no mention of facing.

While I don't agree with your interpretation of the rules, it's entirely possible that by not stating how facing works explicitly, you can make the assumption that it's in the game, since it's how real people work. Sort of. The trouble with any RPG is that it breaks time up into these chunks of turns and rounds, but a real person wouldn't be staring straight ahead throughout a round!

 

[KYRON45]

"
You win, everyone else must be wrong.

Do i have to sign a release or a certificate that allow you to have won the conversation.

Were just trying to explain the how and whys of things and you just keep asking for more. I think there is a term for that."


I'm just trying to understand how there has to specific rules to do somethings and not others.

It’s an imperfect system my friend.

 

[ezo]

Sure but if my PC is hiding from your creature and I ask which direction you are facing so I can decide if you can see me then you would have to declare which way you are facing. You would still have a LOS, just not be looking down it, so not facing me.

Actually this is part of the problem with the Hide action in 2024 and I posted upthread (or maybe in another thread...?) about it and why I am here discussing it.

Hide​

With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.

On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.

The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component

If you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you? Bullsht!t.

Even IRL just because something happens to be looking in your direction doesn't mean it sees you. It might, sure, but even if it does you can't possible know that. You might suspect it, but that's it.

Now, let's examine the actual rule:

You must be out of an enemy's line of sight. This means the enemy's line of sight must be obstructed. Well, this isn't a problem if you are Heavily Obscured or behind Total Cover in most cases. There are outliers and expections, like with a wall of force (which is invisible but don't even get me started again on THAT!). Three-Quarters Cover does not block line of sight. So, right there you already have an impossibility and I would love for someone to explain that. But, moving on...

So, ignoring the Three-Quarter Cover issue, Heavily Obscured and Total Cover break line of sight... but this works both ways with Total Cover! That means YOU can't see THEM, either!!! And really, since you can't be seen, any Dexterity (Stealth) check you make is really to be quiet.

Heavily Obscured is a different issue. You are Heavily Obscured, not them. So, you can see them, but because you are Heavily Obscured they are considered to have the Blinded condition while trying to see you... Wait a minute! That means they automatically can't see you... so again, since you can't be seen, any Dexterity (Stealth) check you make is really to be quiet.

So, what this boils down to is this:
With Three-Quarters Cover, they have Line of Sight and can see you, and you can see them--so no Hide action.
With Total Cover (barring edge cases), neither of you have Line of Sight on the other, so you are just trying to be quiet, not "hide".
With Heavy Obscurement, same as Total Cover...

As soon as you move from behind cover or out of heavy obscurement, you are seen due to Line of Sight being established, and lose most of the benefits from the Invisible condition.

What the heck is the point of this!?!

Simple. It is badly written and the lack of facing rules is the key problem. The DM (as always) has to decide when you can attempt to Hide (i.e. the enemy is NOT facing you--as you say--and cannot see you). But here's the rub:

If the enemy cannot see you due to "facing" away, why do you need cover or heavy obscurement in these cases? You are already unseen!

Frankly, it is a hot mess IMO, and any attempts to Hide are really attemps to move quietly so they don't HEAR YOU! Crazy...

 

[KYRON45]

You said the general rule that you can't build an underwater fire would apply since there's no rule saying you can. I was being serious, as I don't own 5.5.

Bam!!! You got me. There are no rules on how to make a fire.

 

[kayakingpoodle]

The 2014 Hiding rules had this text:

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen." (Chapter 7, Using Ability Scores, Hiding section).

It's one of the passages they deleted from 2024.

The 2024 rules do say that you can't hide if someone has line-of-sight to you, and the rules defining line-of-sight make no mention of facing.

While I don't agree with your interpretation of the rules, it's entirely possible that by not stating how facing works explicitly, you can make the assumption that it's in the game, since it's how real people work. Sort of. The trouble with any RPG is that it breaks time up into these chunks of turns and rounds, but a real person wouldn't be staring straight ahead throughout a round!

It literally says "With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight;"
In the definition of the hide action of the 24 PHB.

 

[ezo]

I'm just trying to understand how there has to specific rules to do somethings and not others.

That's always been the case in every RPG.

In 2024, 5E for example lacks facing rules. They might add them to a book later on? Who knows? I don't know why they took them out, or didn't include a section about DM abjucating facing, etc. as the rule. Perhaps they just thought it should be common sense? After all, they have long favored rulings over rules anyway.

To be clear, I perfectly understand your point and as a player I agree with you as far as RAI. My issue is why not write better rules so it can be RAW?

 

[kayakingpoodle]

It’s an imperfect system my friend.

I never said it was, but it gets worse when rules or lack there of are not handled consistently.

 

[KYRON45]

I never said it was, but it gets worse when rules or lack there of are not handled consistently.

Which is why everyone is always arguing about the rules involved with stealth.

Good luck in your journey to understand.

 

[kayakingpoodle]

I understand the issue just as well as you do, we just don't agree on it. You're looking for a problem and found one, I'm looking for a solution and found one. Since we are not playing the game together we both are correct.

 

[pukunui]

Actually I’m pretty sure there are rules for this, at least kind of. The underwater combat rules say that creatures fully immersed in water have resistance to fire damage. So, fire damage spells must still work, or how else would creatures even take fire damage to resist it?

Yep, and the new Dragon Turtle's Steam Breath attack specifically states that "Being underwater doesn’t grant Resistance to this Fire damage."