D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Charlaquin]

RAW the rules are wonky, but most here have a pretty good idea of what the RAI is. Honestly, just apply some common sense, use the RAI and save yourselves a lot of headaches. For the most part, its rules lawyers that care about RAW

Speaking for myself, what I think the RAI is sucks. It’s functional, but the way I’m pretty sure it’s supposed to function is not the way I think it should function. I can and will house rule to fix it, but I should still be allowed to come to a D&D discussion forum and discuss the issues I have with both RAW and RAI.

 

[CleverNickName]

The implication is that the DM can just arbitrarily decide (insert rules interpretation here)

This isn't just implied; it's explicitly stated in the first chapter of the DMG, for all rules.

When I'm sitting in the DM chair, I say that this is a powerful feature that keeps the game moving forward without bogging down in rules minutiae (I'm looking at you, Pathfinder). But when I'm not the DM, I say this is a terrible flaw in game design that makes my character actions seem arbitrary and predetermined.

 

[KYRON45]

It's truly a game of compromises. Trust the DM and ignore the players.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I rather think that line implies that rules trump physics.

No. That line explicitely states that you can't build a peasant railgun by exploiting rules.

 

[Selas]

Ok, so explain, please, what in your view the RAI are here?

EDIT: a "step-by-step" approach would be most helpful I think.

That's up to you; I already said previously that for me it's intended to give the ability to attack while hidden, sneaking, etc. to give the assassin/rogue style fantasy. But if you want steps, here you go

1. Identify the gaps in the rules for your game
2. Apply common sense to the gaps
3. Rewrite and apply to game

There. That enough step-by-step for you?

 

[Selas]

I think RAI has some fairly large holes, especially line of sight, leaving cover/obstruction and coming out into the open, etc. But everyone’s always done stealth however they wanted anyways, so probably doesn’t really matter what the RAW or RAI actually are.

There are holes, but I don't think is THAT complicated. Since you brought leaving cover and coming out in the open: all the Hide action says is that for an enemy to find you they do a Perception check against your stealth DC score. This doesn't specifically say to do the Search action, but it's one option for conducting an active search. But if you're out in the open, does a creature need to take the Search action, or should just doing the Perception check be enough? Well, according to the DMG24 the DM can just call for it when a creature is using stealth, so if a player is out in the open in combat, the DM can just roll the check to see if an enemy sees you

 

[ezo]

That's up to you; I already said previously that for me it's intended to give the ability to attack while hidden, sneaking, etc. to give the assassin/rogue style fantasy. But if you want steps, here you go

1. Identify the gaps in the rules for your game
2. Apply common sense to the gaps
3. Rewrite and apply to game

There. That enough step-by-step for you?

I guess maybe I wasn't clear, but this isn't what I meant.

What are YOUR steps to the RAI to the process of and execute of the Hide action (or Stealth in general)? In other words, if RAW don't work for you, how are you interpreting those rules to make them work?

 

[Sorinth]

I agree with your statement in general.

The challenge posed by poorly worded Stealth rules, in particular, (as @James Gasik pointed out in post 531) is that the RAI could realistically be one of two things: stealth is an easy-to-use, ninja-like Elder Scrolls "stealth mode" tactic; or stealth is a difficult-to-use "cower in the dark and hope no one sees you" tactic.

Ultimately, the DM decides which of those two paradigms applies at their table. But to me, ninja-stealth-mode D&D and cower-in-the-dark D&D don't even feel like the same game. The combat tactics they each support are so different from one another, I find it hard to identify a single, baseline 2024 ruleset.

It's worth keeping in mind even though both approaches are very different, neither is right nor wrong. So long as going into the game everybody is on the same page about how it's going to work then it's a good thing that the rules can support those two different visions. If running a horror themed adventure campaign then limiting player's stealth to being cowering in the dark fits perfectly , for other styles of game ninja stealth mode is a better fit.

 

[Selas]

I guess maybe I wasn't clear, but this isn't what I meant.

What are YOUR steps to the RAI to the process of and execute of the Hide action (or Stealth in general)? In other words, if RAW don't work for you, how are you interpreting those rules to make them work?

That's the thing; for me, the RAW for 2024 works. Other than that I apply this from the DMG:

"An important time to call for a Wisdom (Perception) check is when another creature is using the Stealth skill to hide. Noticing a hidden creature is never trivially easy or automatically impossible, so characters can always try Wisdom (Perception) checks to do so."

So, if a player steps out from hiding into the open, the DM can have each creature roll Perception on their turns to see if they notice the player. This is literally the BG3 approach

 

[ezo]

That's the thing; for me, the RAW for 2024 works.

I honestly don't know how. Using the 2024 rules, walk me through an example if you can, please?