D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

[Kobold Boots]

I haven't read all 28 pages of this topic and to be completely honest, I'm fearful of commenting in a thread that is covering racial overtones so please read this as respectfully as possible to all.

1. It's hard to put a finger on African fantasy archetypes from a western author's perspective simply because the teaching of African history was marginalized for a long time in the West.
2. Add to this that many civilizations were wiped out and languages suppressed by western powers during the colonial era.
3. The reality of the situation is that African history and legend has been and is being actively rediscovered by scholars. Just look up some TED talks on the matter and you'll find them.
4. So the best thing to do given the situation that exists and the increased awareness of how horrible the events in points one and two are is to research, read, discover and learn. Integrate things into your games and correct the missing pieces in your games if the topic concerns you.

End of the day, the current versions of D&D do a better job of including people than 1E or 2E did. As Western culture evolves so will our games.

Nuff Said
KB

 

[Lylandra]

Mystara has this stereotype with the Hattians; originating with Baron Ludwig Von Hendriks in the Cook/Marsh Expert set, carried forward by Aaron Allston in Dawn of the Emperors and then the Heldannic (ie Teutonic) knights. Running Mystara recently I found it a bit problematic in that you get this "German villain culture" shoehorned in to "Byzantine empire culture" (Thyatis), with no connection to the more nuanced Norse (Northern Reaches) culture to the north, beyond "good Sunni Arab culture" (Ylaruam) which in turn has no connection to "Bad Shia Muslim culture" (Sind) far to the west. It's a very '80s mish-mash and kinda feels much more dated than more fantastical stuff like the Wilderlands.

Yeah, being delegated to villain territory in many many forms of media is one of these aspects. Zhe evil German. It is just unnerving. And mind you, I've never faced oppression or discrimination because of my nationality. I guess it will be much worse for people who belong to groups which are still marginalized today.

Or as the German individual pointed out how folks keep equating Germany to a small window of time of its existence compared to the totality of its existence due to a stereotypical form of racism. This might get a little sticky I presume if what you are trying to portray is that time period of Germany's history but perhaps they are only meaning in cases where that is not the specific case -- not sure on that one perhaps @Lylandra will clarify what they mean.

I don't want to derail the thread and no, it is not the same as racism against black people. Because, my country had that historical period. They did awful things. There's no excuse for what the Nazis did. But from my perspective, today's Germans are very far from the Nazis (or Nazi parodies) you see in movies. We don't like aggressivism and militarism, many people are really open minded, peaceful and ashamed of what our grandparents did. Therefore, we are not really patriotic etc. So "zhe German" might be as far from most real Germans as he could be. And if you think about the fact that we've been taught from childhood that being a Nazi is literally the worst, being often equated with the one thing you're striving not to be can be quite unsettling.

And mind you, there are, as I said, enough (funny and at least partially true) stereotypes one can use when describing something German. But I'd say that's some sort of privilege again because, as I said earlier, my people don't tend to be discriminated against because of their skin color or their nationality. No one will not hire a German because he thinks he might be hiring an evil Nazi. But maybe someone will not hire an Arab or Iranian because he thinks the person might be an evil terrorist.

 

[Imaro]

Well I thought it was fairly obvious but okay -- the general Caucasian (or European) population was whom I was referring to as they are the ones that used these terms so readily -- however they are also the population that has learned (or some of them anyway) that such terms are not acceptable to use.

I just can't...

 

[Alexemplar]

So who do you think finds those terms acceptable?

I'm guessing he thinks black people consider it "okay" to call each other the n-word. Which is really an oversimplification of how it works.

 

[Mirtek]

Tween : short for Tweenager (a preteen or a young teenager)

Wow, the more you know. I always though tween meant someone in his/her twenties. An extension of teen to extend the "youth phase" in our youth-orientated society

 

[Alexemplar]

End of the day, the current versions of D&D do a better job of including people than 1E or 2E did...

That's kind of the thing... they dropped the ball when it came to ToA/Chult.

In the case of Chult, they didn't do a better job. In 4e, they kind of went backwards by destroying Chult's only indigenous "civilized" city and the neighboring nation during the spellplague. In 5e, they didn't bother bringing them back even though they brought lots of other stuff back. Then they released 5e the not so flattering ToA. The kind of stuff you're seeing is pretty much the same as in 1e and 2e, so we aren't making progress in this regard. If they knew the situation that exists and the increased awareness of how horrible the events in points one and two, then it seems they didn't seem to research, read, discover and learn.

Which is not to say we all hate WotC, that it's a horrible company and that it's irredeemable and has no future. Rather, we expect more and this article is just one example of people telling WotC (and others) that we expect more. If people don't ever make their concerns known, people are going to assume that the way Chult was handled is totally cool with everyone because nobody is voicing any concerns.

Honestly, I would like to say a lot of progress has been made on this front, but it honestly hasn't.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Really what do you back that mere opinion up with? Perhaps the human nature aspect of what someone feels is okay in a game setting they tend to seem to feel is okay not in a game setting -- oh wait no that would fly in the face of your claim -- even though it is a psychological truth. The key here is it is not 100% true of everyone it is simply an observation documented by psychology aimed at the general populace with the understanding that there are exceptions to these psychological truths.

Real racism hurts real people. Fictionalized racism hurts real people if and only if it obviously or obliquely references those people in the depiction. Completely fictionalized racism- for example, where the victim and methodologies have no real world analogs- is at most allegorical, and is usually merely fiction, thus hurting no one.

(No one who understands the distinctions between mere fiction, allegorical fiction, and reality, at least.)

No it does not - I have run games set in time periods (aka more realistic settings) where racism was a big issue as such I always outline up front that it is going to be an issue but I tend to handle it in a more generic manner - applying it to all races by all races but making rolls for individual NPCs to see where they fall on the spectrum of racial/national racism. So it does not "swallow" my overall rule in anyway shape or form.

Sure it does. If the "in game the purpose is to reflect someone who is racist for purposes of the story." is clear to the players, they should not take offense. Period. Your exception swallows your rule.

Okay well let us examine your claim.

Tween : short for Tweenager (a preteen or a young teenager)
Hauflin : an awkward (causing difficulty; hard to do or deal with) rustic (a person of plain and simple fashion) teenager, who is neither man nor boy, and so half of both
Hobbledehoy : a clumsy (awkward in movement or in handling things) or awkward youth​

Well it looks to me like the two words I described as being "rather" (which implies not 100% so -- but leaning in that direction heavily) derogatory are no where near as benign as tween, although in gamers term tween is definitely a derogatory term these days. So not sure if you are referring to the regular definition for tween or the gamers definition for tween .. which if I understand correctly refers to a character type someone likes to play as opposed to the player themselves.

You do know that "tween" as it is used in standard conversation and journalism often denotes immaturity and lack of depth? Lacking in gravitas? IOW, it can be somewhat dismissive & derogatory...but it isn't anywhere close to calling an adult black male "boy".



In your opinion okay but I perfectly understand that rather blind point of view as it exists in the world where real life racism takes place and the same excuse is used. Oh wait I know it is different because it was not intentional or it is just a game. Really go ahead and continue with those rationalizations to make you feel morally correct.

Interesting I did not state whom I thought those terms were thought to be acceptable by -- however your assumption is very interesting but seemingly completely incorrect -- further no I do not need to "talk with the members of" that race as I already have. Perhaps instead you should be more careful of your casual assumptions.

I did make assumptions, yes. Here's why:

Odds are good that you weren't referring to something that would have gotten censored by the language filter. But, having been a multiracial* black man all my life, I can tell you that if a term is considered racist NOW, blacks weren't OK with it THEN. Ditto for the people targeted by any slur you'd care to pick.

It's just that THEN, people were ignoring or not hearing the objections.

And I think, deep down, you somehow realize this, because otherwise, you'd have listed those terms for discussion.


* pretty much, if you have a racial slur you want to sling, I could justifiably take some offense.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Didn't Gygax just lift "halfling" from Tolkien too? It's in Lord of the Rings, as an exonym for "Hobbit". (Presumably derogatory, but not much is ever made of that in the course of the story IIRC -- everybody has bigger things to worry about.)

It's possible he did- I read LotR, but didn't pore over it like some. Liked it, but never loved it. So if JRRT did use "halfling" I wouldn't be surprised to find I simply don't remember it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well I thought it was fairly obvious but okay -- the general Caucasian (or European) population was whom I was referring to as they are the ones that used these terms so readily -- however they are also the population that has learned (or some of them anyway) that such terms are not acceptable to use.

IOW,

The ONLY people who didn't think the terms I bet you're thinking of were racist or deneaning were the people using the terms to refer to those unlike themselves.

 

[Satyrn]

Yeah, being delegated to villain territory in many many forms of media is one of these aspects. Zhe evil German. It is just unnerving. And mind you, I've never faced oppression or discrimination because of my nationality. I guess it will be much worse for people who belong to groups which are still marginalized today.



I don't want to derail the thread and no, it is not the same as racism against black people. Because, my country had that historical period. They did awful things. There's no excuse for what the Nazis did. But from my perspective, today's Germans are very far from the Nazis (or Nazi parodies) you see in movies. We don't like aggressivism and militarism, many people are really open minded, peaceful and ashamed of what our grandparents did. Therefore, we are not really patriotic etc. So "zhe German" might be as far from most real Germans as he could be. And if you think about the fact that we've been taught from childhood that being a Nazi is literally the worst, being often equated with the one thing you're striving not to be can be quite unsettling.

And mind you, there are, as I said, enough (funny and at least partially true) stereotypes one can use when describing something German. But I'd say that's some sort of privilege again because, as I said earlier, my people don't tend to be discriminated against because of their skin color or their nationality. No one will not hire a German because he thinks he might be hiring an evil Nazi. But maybe someone will not hire an Arab or Iranian because he thinks the person might be an evil terrorist.

Interestingly, I had thought you were talking originally about the World War One era German stereotype, with it's Kaiserific blend of modern and medieval, if that makes sense.