D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you teach stereotypes such that someone actually believes that a civilization was at it's height as savages, then writers are going to continue the stereotype.
If you don't have evidence that contradicts the stereotype because of generational neglect in academia, then it lingers.
I expect that stereotype to change as conversations and academic papers rewrite African history without depending on a western audience to write them.
I expect writers to be more aware and realign themselves to whatever reflects the actual appropriate state of "fantasy African civilzation" should be over time.

Good stuff.

 

[Alexemplar]

Thanks for the post Pemerton - I've been sitting here for about 20m just reflecting on it and of course you're right. Alcatraz also makes a good point about general ignorance/ignoring.

Instead of commenting directly on where my quote was taken, I think I just want to be really clear about what my intention was with the post in the event it gets more life in the comparison that it did in the original posting.

If you teach stereotypes such that someone actually believes that a civilization was at it's height as savages, then writers are going to continue the stereotype.
If you don't have evidence that contradicts the stereotype because of generational neglect in academia, then it lingers.
I expect that stereotype to change as conversations and academic papers rewrite African history without depending on a western audience to write them.
I expect writers to be more aware and realign themselves to whatever reflects the actual appropriate state of "fantasy African civilzation" should be over time.

This isn't how it works though. Sure, there's not as much information about pre-Colonial Africa compared to Eurasia, and it isn't a focus in schools, but that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of information out there. More than any casual reader could really consume if they had half a mind to. I wouldn't say the primary reason most people are ignorant about Africa is because of a dearth of books, documentaries, or information out there for the people who want it.

People have to want it.

The US education system really doesn't go into much depth about European, Egyptian, or Asian history. That doesn't keep a lot of people (especially TTRPGers) from being pretty nifty repositories of knowledge regarding those cultures. People want to learn about those cultures.

I really think it has more to do with the public perception of Africa. People generally aren't interested because they don't think there's much interesting stuff there? There's safari animals, voodoo witch doctors that sacrifice people/animals, diseases, semi-nude tribes, architecture no more complicated than single room mud huts, slavery and one depressing atrocity/disaster after another. What is there really to read about? Do I really want to just be sad? Aren't the only people who care about this stuff preachy human rights activists or snobby militant intellectuals into pan-Africanism and adopting Islam because they dislike white people?

I say that, because that's pretty much how I felt about Africa based on what (very little) I knew of it. And because of that generally dismissive attitude I had never really cracked open a book, read that many wikipedia articles, or read books/watched movies that had presented me with anything different. I mean, I didn't think people living in Africa are stupid or unworthy of respect or anything- I just didn't think their history or pre-colonial culture was all that hopeful, interesting, or varied compared to the rich cultures of Europe or Asia (particularly Japan).

That changed when I started accidentally learning about it for renfaire garbing. There was so much that didn't know. Even crazier was that there was so much that I didn't know that I didn't know. The information itself wasn't hard find. You just rarely see it or hear people talking about it so you never really get curious to check it out yourself. It piqued my interest to the point where I saw a copy of Nyambe gathering dust at my local comic book shop and picked it up.

I'm not an expert by any means, but even what little I know puts me lightyears ahead of where I used to be. That journey didn't start just because someone plopped some text in front of me. It started because the interesting stuff I discovered while pursuing other nerdy hobbies- in this case, renfaire. I likewise think that a lot of people got their interest in real world history/cultures after being exposed to them via their nerdy hobbies- like D&D.

It is a sad loop, but now that we see the loop, we can take a little responsibility for what happens after that.

 

[Harzel]

Really no real world analogs -- hmm the term half-breed never used in the real world ... in fact derogatory terms used for other mixed races has never historically ever occurred -- interesting claim?


You know you are a fairly pretentious individual and interestingly blind to the views of your own sub-group but that is not all that surprising I have met individuals like you before and I acknowledge that not everyone even those that belong to said groups are even fully aware of what some of their own groups find offensive. Rather sad though. As for what terms I was referring to -- actually all and every one of them -- however I see no need to waste my time voicing them all to a group of individuals that obviously only surfacely care about racism to just prove a point -- I mean you are either aware or you are not -- and if you are not it is most likely because you choose not to be as this group in general (and yet mind you not all -- it should be fairly obvious to whom I am referring to) has made self-evident.

If those here are an indication of the personalities associated with that article then I am definitely glad that I did not do more than gloss read as it probably would have made me ill trying to digest such garbage.

Oh @Dannyalcatraz please do me the favor of blocking me -- I would have simply blocked you but you seem to hold an ill placed position of authority here and as such I am not allowed to block you.

May you and your compatriots enjoy your false stand of whatever you want to call it because it is pretty obvious that it is based on a lies

I was thinking of posting a comment for you trying to explain in as nice a way as I could why you were getting pushback on your inappropriate equating of real life racism and fictional racism in D&D. However, you have now replied to a very civil post with a really terrible personal attack.

There have been a couple of people who were less than kind to you in this thread, but to be blunt (and I know you approve of blunt), those were occasioned by posts from you that conveyed (whether intentionally or not) arrogance, belligerence, and insensitivity.

In any case Danny was being really polite considering the hurtful nature of the drum you were currently beating. Why on earth would you attack him like that??

 

[Alexemplar]

wrong thread...

 

[Kobold Boots]

This isn't how it works though. Sure, there's not as much information about pre-Colonial Africa compared to Eurasia, and it isn't a focus in schools, but that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of information out there. More than any casual reader could really consume if they had half a mind to. I wouldn't say the primary reason most people are ignorant about Africa is because of a dearth of books, documentaries, or information out there for the people who want it.

People have to want it.

The US education system really doesn't go into much depth about European, Egyptian, or Asian history. That doesn't keep a lot of people (especially TTRPGers) from being pretty nifty repositories of knowledge regarding those cultures. People want to learn about those cultures.

I really think it has more to do with the public perception of Africa. People generally aren't interested because they don't think there's much interesting stuff there? There's safari animals, voodoo witch doctors that sacrifice people/animals, diseases, semi-nude tribes, architecture no more complicated than single room mud huts, slavery and one depressing atrocity/disaster after another. What is there really to read about? Do I really want to just be sad? Aren't the only people who care about this stuff preachy human rights activists or snobby militant intellectuals into pan-Africanism and adopting Islam because they dislike white people?

I say that, because that's pretty much how I felt about Africa based on what (very little) I knew of it. And because of that generally dismissive attitude I had never really cracked open a book, read that many wikipedia articles, or read books/watched movies that had presented me with anything different. I mean, I didn't think people living in Africa are stupid or unworthy of respect or anything- I just didn't think their history or pre-colonial culture was all that hopeful, interesting, or varied compared to the rich cultures of Europe or Asia (particularly Japan).

That changed when I started accidentally learning about it for renfaire garbing. There was so much that didn't know. Even crazier was that there was so much that I didn't know that I didn't know. The information itself wasn't hard find. You just rarely see it or hear people talking about it so you never really get curious to check it out yourself. It piqued my interest to the point where I saw a copy of Nyambe gathering dust at my local comic book shop and picked it up.

I'm not an expert by any means, but even what little I know puts me lightyears ahead of where I used to be. That journey didn't start just because someone plopped some text in front of me. It started because the interesting stuff I discovered while pursuing other nerdy hobbies- in this case, renfaire. I likewise think that a lot of people got their interest in real world history/cultures after being exposed to them via their nerdy hobbies- like D&D.

It is a sad loop, but now that we see the loop, we can take a little responsibility for what happens after that.

Hi Alex -

You started your post (and a very good post that's very relevant with your life experiences) by stating that my post isn't how it works.

You then proceeded to explain your experience and I found when reading it that it exactly mapped to what I stated in the first place.

People don't know anything more than the stereotype until they learn otherwise. Until they learn otherwise they either perpetuate the stereotype or they don't care about whatever it is at all until they have to; and many don't have to until they've accidentally or intentionally offended someone.

You learned otherwise because of your passion for ren faires. That's absolutely awesome and I commend you for it. I learned otherwise because of getting a history degree, realizing that there was a huge gap in recorded African histories due to exploitation and outright destruction of artifacts and oral histories by Western powers and an attempt to destroy those histories through religious expansion and Anglification (amongst other things).

You're right that I got interested in history due to D&D. I was eight when I started playing. But on the same hand, I went to schools where history was a very important part of the curriculum and I still didn't learn about Africa. But I learned about an English person's view of it, and it largely read like Tarzan. Complete and utter trash, and I thank god for college.

So that's what's coloring my view and I'm glad that those of African ancestry are finally getting to research the cultures that got smashed. With any luck we won't be seeing much of the savage stereotypes anymore, unless they're also paired with the wildly affluent gold emperorships of the lower nile that made the European kings jealous with their culture and advances.

Getting late, I'm getting tired and if I start talking about the factors that led to European colonization of Africa, I'll be here all night. That said, you get major props from me for pulling me back into the thread. Only good posts get that mark.

KB

 

[Alexemplar]

Hi Alex -

You started your post (and a very good post that's very relevant with your life experiences) by stating that my post isn't how it works.

You then proceeded to explain your experience and I found when reading it that it exactly mapped to what I stated in the first place.

People don't know anything more than the stereotype until they learn otherwise. Until they learn otherwise they either perpetuate the stereotype or they don't care about whatever it is at all until they have to; and many don't have to until they've accidentally or intentionally offended someone.

You learned otherwise because of your passion for ren faires. That's absolutely awesome and I commend you for it. I learned otherwise because of getting a history degree, realizing that there was a huge gap in recorded African histories due to exploitation and outright destruction of artifacts and oral histories by Western powers and an attempt to destroy those histories through religious expansion and Anglification (amongst other things).

You're right that I got interested in history due to D&D. I was eight when I started playing. But on the same hand, I went to schools where history was a very important part of the curriculum and I still didn't learn about Africa. But I learned about an English person's view of it, and it largely read like Tarzan. Complete and utter trash, and I thank god for college.

So that's what's coloring my view and I'm glad that those of African ancestry are finally getting to research the cultures that got smashed. With any luck we won't be seeing much of the savage stereotypes anymore, unless they're also paired with the wildly affluent gold emperorships of the lower nile that made the European kings jealous with their culture and advances.

If I was following you correctly, your reasoning was that the limited state of African fantasy is the way it is now because of its limited status in academia and public education. It's hard to get actual information one would need to improve the state of African fantasy because there's relatively little. If we want to improve the state of African fantasy, we need better research and formal education.

If that is indeed what you're suggesting, then I disagree. I don't disagree with the sentiment or think your goals are wrongheaded. I just think you're coming at the issue from the wrong direction.

As the world's most popular RPG, D&D is in a unique spot to influence how the narrative of African fantasy plays out. Using its popularity to expose players to a kind of African fantasy setting they haven't experienced before is going to be the ticket to getting them to question what they thought was true, doing some independent reading, getting lost down a wikihole and actually changing what they thought they knew. It's also the way to do something other than the usual "Darkest Africa" stuff.

And I think this is perfectly doable with the information on Africa currently available.

You referenced Mansa Musa, for instance. He's not new to African historians or anyone who has read any book mentioning the Mali Empire, which is one of the most well known African empires. He is, however, new to a lot of people who've never popped open a book on Africa thanks to pop culture. Google search results for his name spiked in 2012 and have been on an upward trend ever since. Seems that in that very same year Forbes Magazine named him the richest man that ever lived, adjusted for inflation. That and his likeness from Civilization4 shows up often. That exposure and rise in relative popularity didn't come so much from improving the quality of African history's standing in academia or the US education system, but by just getting it out there into the pop culture ether via Forbes magazine and the internet clickbait/social media/meme machine. You could have been the anthropologist who discovered his remains and his last living will and testament and I still don't think that would have raised peoples' awareness of him as much as that article in Forbes did.

If I misunderstood you, then nevermind.

Getting late, I'd getting tired and if I start talking about the factors that led to European colonization of Africa, I'll be here all night. That said, you get major props from me for pulling me back into the thread. Only good posts get that mark.

KB

It wasn't my intention to bring you back and it's definately not my intention to lead this discussion into one about the impacts of colonialism. I've been trying very hard to talk about settings in the vein of Nyambe, Spears of the Dawn, Kara Tur, and Al Qadim- none of which don't deal with the issues of 17th+ century style colonialism as a part of the setting the way Chult does.

 

[Shasarak]

You learned otherwise because of your passion for ren faires. That's absolutely awesome and I commend you for it. I learned otherwise because of getting a history degree, realizing that there was a huge gap in recorded African histories due to exploitation and outright destruction of artifacts and oral histories by Western powers and an attempt to destroy those histories through religious expansion and Anglification (amongst other things).

You're right that I got interested in history due to D&D. I was eight when I started playing. But on the same hand, I went to schools where history was a very important part of the curriculum and I still didn't learn about Africa. But I learned about an English person's view of it, and it largely read like Tarzan. Complete and utter trash, and I thank god for college.

So that's what's coloring my view and I'm glad that those of African ancestry are finally getting to research the cultures that got smashed. With any luck we won't be seeing much of the savage stereotypes anymore, unless they're also paired with the wildly affluent gold emperorships of the lower nile that made the European kings jealous with their culture and advances.

Getting late, I'm getting tired and if I start talking about the factors that led to European colonization of Africa, I'll be here all night. That said, you get major props from me for pulling me back into the thread. Only good posts get that mark.

KB

If you look at enough History then you can see that it is about everyones Culture getting smashed but the Europeans seem to get all the credit for some reason.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Kobold Boots' posts about African kings reminded me there are some killer photos of african kings & queens by James C. Lewis (recreations of historical figures) and Daniel Laine (modern rulers). Look 'em up. Some are utterly riveting.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

You referenced Mansa Musa, for instance. He's not new to African historians or anyone who has read any book mentioning the Mali Empire, which is one of the most well known African empires. He is, however, new to a lot of people who've never popped open a book on Africa thanks to pop culture. Google search results for his name spiked in 2012 and have been on an upward trend ever since. Seems that in that very same year Forbes Magazine named him the richest man that ever lived, adjusted for inflation. That and his likeness from Civilization4 shows up often. That exposure and rise in relative popularity didn't come so much from improving the quality of African history's standing in academia or the US education system, but by just getting it out there into the pop culture ether via Forbes magazine and the internet clickbait/social media/meme machine. You could have been the anthropologist who discovered his remains and his last living will and testament and I still don't think that would have raised peoples' awareness of him as much as that article in Forbes did.

Dude, Mansa Musa was the bomb in Civ4. Just turtle up and make all the money. I miss him in Civ5, we got stupid Askia instead. "Oh, you think you're good at mid-game warfare? Does your name start with a G and end with an -enghis Khan? No? Then... no."

 

[pemerton]

Just in case the intent was to polarize and show the difference between conventional "white" and conventional "black" realism, I had no intention of being on the "white" side even if I am white. Just going off of the tragic but improving state of documented African history prior to Europe screwing it all up.

I'm trying really hard not to be a part of the racist/not racist discussion and feel like I'm failing horribly so I'll bow out.

I wasn't wanting to pressure you to bow out.

I've seen threads like this before, and this is the first one where I feel I've really gone in hard. Some of that I think might be a response to non-ENworld, non-gaming related (but not necessarily off-topic stuff) that has put me in a slightly different frame from what I've been in before. And some of that was because I was reading posts saying "I wonder what a black ENworlder might say" on or about the same page as [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]'s posts, and wanted to say "Well, here's a black player posting, and a well-known ENworld regular, and you don't seem to be listening to him!"

So any way, the point of my post wasn't to attack yours - I've got absolutely no objection to doing better histories of Africa, or other non-European parts of the world. I was using your post as a springboard to a different point, that even someone ignorant of how Africa was before the late 19th century (or the late 15th century, or wherever you want to draw your line in time) might see that the framing they are using is one derived not from Africa itself, or from black culture (be that African or diaspora) but from a narrative created about Africa for some purpose, or in a context, completely divorced from actual truth-telling. You don't need to know what's true to recognise something as un-truth.

So anyway, that's a slightly word way of offering an apology if you felt my post was an attack - it wasn't intended as one and I'm sorry if I upset you - coupled with a non-apology for what I actually posted (which I hope doesn't compound any sense of attack - the wordiness is an attempt to achieve this perhaps oxymoronic posting goal).