D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

[Caliburn101]

I don't particularly feel like getting into a debate with a proponent of "all fantasy stereotypes matter," which is why I addressed only the factual issue that you were incorrect on.

It is my opinion that fantasy, and fantasy RPGs has had issues when it comes to race, and these go back to the antecedent roots (see Howard, Lovecraft, et al).

Please feel free to carry on your debate with someone who is less likely to get really angry with you.

I have quoted the only part of your post I agree with.

You seem in this particular context to have a narrow perspective on what race means however.

I am married to a Russian and lived for years in Hong Kong, where I became close with a Jewish family whose son was a good friend at school. I also have Romany blood in my family on my mother's side. As a consequence, and for many reasons in fact, I am unusually aware how much pro-western-culture-bias racial cliché creates real upset and in some cases disadvantage and oppression in and against races and cultures other than those of African descent.

Labelling me the kind of passive-excusist who would paraphrase the passive-aggressive resist refrain "All Lives Matter" is pretty low.

 

[Alexemplar]

I acknowledge your point on the transfer of full creative control.

However, you have also said you disagree with "a lot" of what I said, but I only really said two things, and you dealt with the second separately from that comment.

So, if you do in fact think that the Chultans, as people of colour are referred to as "second class citizens, servile, downtrodden, unequal or incapable" in the adventure module, I will happily retract that observation if you can point out where it is that happened, as I quite honestly must have entirely missed it.

With the cultural focus of the west on anti-black racism, there is tendency to think of that as the predominant scope of what racism is. This is entirely wrong of course. There are many examples of racism of one race or culture against another (black, white, asian, oriental, arabic etc.), including subsets of each (such as white vs. white, or arab vs arab) in the real world. Should we go to the effort of looking at every potential racial cliché for signs of representational bias in their regard too, or shouldn't we?

Do those racial and cultural groups have to complain about the racial and cultural clichés in our games before we take note of them?

If we are to have a policy of actively and rigorously avoiding racial cliché because it has the potential to drift into racism (and let's not forget sexism as was in early editions), then we should acknowledge that this should be done across the board. No 'evil gypsies' like the Vistani, or no 'evil oriental wizards from the far east' acting like Fu Man Chu to take two examples. No chainmail bikinis for that matter!

Do you feel that we have all "dropped the ball" on these too?

They did drop the ball when it came to the Vistani and many people called them out on it, and it wasn't just from the Romani community, although discrimination against them is not nearly as much a problem in the US as it is in Europe.

And yes, D&D has long been criticized for chainmail bikinis and other gratuitous instances of female nudity. It's made great strides in that regard, but should they release an adventure prominently featuring lots of art of a woman in a sheer white robe, a courtesan table, and rules for reduced strength scores/charisma bonuses for female characters, just because all that stuff was in previous D&D books, then you had better believe people will call them out on it.

Likewise if they ever decided that Kara Tur was destroyed in the spellplague and that all that exists is a single island full of "Yellow Peril" stereotypes: where Samurai fight Shao-Lin monks over honor-feuds, everyone worships the Dalai Llama, and the only safe place is a colony established by people from the Sword Coast, then I would have to imagine tons of people would complain- and be justified in doing so.

 

[Alexemplar]

Just a side thought from a writing perspective as we start going down the rabbit hole of racism and stereotypes.

Stereotypes exist because there are real behaviors and imagery that support them.
Whether or not a stereotype is racist has to do with whether or not it adversely affects someone's ability to be equal with someone else of another race or if it offends someone; usually due to some social stigma related to actual equality or actual subservience.

As a writer of fantasy craft, I use stereotypes all of the time to assist people with getting a vibe for where they are, and within the general space of fantasy literature there are a ton of stereotypes. Sometimes these can have some racial base as if you're doing Wuxia, then you've got asians in pajamas syndrome. There are a ton of others, and I'm intentionally avoiding African stereotypes in order to remove some fuel from the thread.

My point being: Just because a stereotype is used does not mean it's racist. There's always context. Additionally, sometimes when someone is offended that doesn't mean that what they're offended by is inherently racist. No one is actually prohibited from having a good life or getting a good job by the destruction and lack of return of the Chult. Additionally, the point of being more inclusive to cultures other than your own is not to remove all signs that could offend anyone in the world. It's simply to provide a more equal playing field to everyone.

End of the day, this thread is full of good discussion, but we're beyond the point where I think someone needs to say: "Hey, this is a game we're talking about here and there are just as many signs of improving harmony in D&D's presentation as there may be negative."

Figured I'd post this thought as I'm seeing some signs of silly and I don't think anyone has posted the "well there were tribesmen in Africa at one point." argument or "Well I could always just retcon Chult back into my campaign" argument.

Stuff like Nyambe: African Adventures and Spears of the Dawn have lots of African tribesmen and manages to avoid portraying them the same way Chult does. It's very much possible to get your fantasy pre-colonial Africa and not have it not be like Chult.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Stuff like Nyambe: African Adventures and Spears of the Dawn have lots of African tribesmen and manages to avoid portraying them the same way Chult does. It's very much possible to get your fantasy pre-colonial Africa and not have it not be like Chult.

Sure, but I thought the original point was that Chult was blown to smithereens and not that Chult was depicted poorly. If you want to move the goalposts on the initial conversation to suit your mood, then you're going to have a real hard time feeling better at the end of the day when no one is having the same conversation you are.

The depicted poorly situation has been hammered to death by more than a couple of us and has roots in a bunch of different reasons, all understandable if entirely unfortunate and crappy.

(edit: nevermind, I'm being an idiot. Reread the OP and the first few pages of the thread. Turns out that I'm being revisionist because I'm finding Alex's harping quite maddening.)

 

[Imaro]

I have quoted the only part of your post I agree with.

You seem in this particular context to have a narrow perspective on what race means however.

I am married to a Russian and lived for years in Hong Kong, where I became close with a Jewish family whose son was a good friend at school. I also have Romany blood in my family on my mother's side. As a consequence, and for many reasons in fact, I am unusually aware how much pro-western-culture-bias racial cliché creates real upset and in some cases disadvantage and oppression in and against races and cultures other than those of African descent.

Labelling me the kind of passive-excusist who would paraphrase the passive-aggressive resist refrain "All Lives Matter" is pretty low.

But we are talking about a specific product which still references negative stereotypes about a particular people... to then say, well are we going to call them out on all cases of negative portrayal of races... and if not aren't we dropping the ball... sounds exactly like the passive -excusist who is paraphrasing the passive aggressive resist refrain "All Lives Matter"... it was honestly the first thing that came to my mind while reading your previous post.

Instead of being free to debate and discuss the particular instance that spawned this discussion we have instead been told unless we discuss all instances we ourselves are just as guilty of dropping the ball... if this was a thread about general negative stereotypes of fanatasy and we co-opted it to discuss a specific issue I might be able to see your point, but that's not what happened here.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Alexemplar]

Sure, but I thought the original point was that Chult was blown to smithereens and not that Chult was depicted poorly. If you want to move the goalposts on the initial conversation to suit your mood, then you're going to have a real hard time feeling better at the end of the day when no one is having the same conversation you are.

All of the Forgotten Realms were blown to smithereens at one point or another. The way Chult is depicted is the same in 2e and 3e before it was before it was blown to smithereens, pretty much the same in 4e when it was blown to smithereens by the spellplague, and in 5e after everything was "repaired" by the sundering. It has nothing to do with the actual state of the realms but more about the kind of place they want Chult to be: Forgotten Realm's fantasy Africa.

I bring up Nyambe and Spears of the Dawn- not in an attempt to shift goal posts, but as an example of how you can have your fantasy Africa, replete with human tribesmen, and still not fall into relying upon the kinds of Darkest Africa tropes as they did with Chult.

The depicted poorly situation has been hammered to death by more than a couple of us and has roots in a bunch of different reasons, all understandable if entirely unfortunate and crappy.

And yet it still has no shortage of defenders and/or people who don't understand why people are taking issue.

 

[Greg Benage]

With the cultural focus of the west on anti-black racism, there is tendency to think of that as the predominant scope of what racism is. This is entirely wrong of course. There are many examples of racism of one race or culture against another (black, white, asian, oriental, arabic etc.), including subsets of each (such as white vs. white, or arab vs arab) in the real world.

The question of whether racism against blacks is "predominant" is irrelevant. First, this is exactly the kind of "whataboutism" Imaro addressed explicitly many pages back. This thread is about the treatment of Chult in ToA and how that treatment might make D&D less welcoming to black folks. As white folks, if we insist on talking instead of listening, the least we can do is agree not to change the subject.

Second, whether or not it's "predominant," racism against blacks, especially in the United States, is certainly unique. It has its own roots, it has its own history, it has its own features, it's structurally embedded in our society in its own way, it has its own continuing manifestations and impacts. It's a unique infection in our national DNA. It's not the only racism, but there's no other racism like it.

And it's not going to change anything soon. It's buried so deep most white folks can't even intellectually grasp it (as evidenced in this thread), let alone empathize with those who suffer it. If that's you, you have a couple options. You can take a step back and actually listen to those who are willing to explain it to you, try to learn from their experience, and try to change how you do you (whether you're a creator or not). You could even fake it until you make it. Adjust your behavior (creative or otherwise) as if it were true and see how that works out. Or you could continue explaining racism to people of color, sharing anecdotes about your black friend, changing the subject, deflecting and dismissing.

Most white folks will continue to choose the second option for the foreseeable future. Hopefully the people at Wizards will take the first approach.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I bring up Nyambe and Spears of the Dawn- not in an attempt to shift goal posts, but as an example of how you can have your fantasy Africa, replete with human tribesmen, and still not fall into relying upon the kinds of Darkest Africa tropes as they did with Chult.

Got it. Which was why I posted my edit to my original post you quoted. I was wrong on the goalpost statement and was hoping you'd actually not have to post the above after reading it.

And yet it still has no shortage of defenders and/or people who don't understand why people are taking issue.

I could very easily state the reverse, that there's no shortage of folks that will read into something, know why it's that way, and still call racist when it doesn't affect their lives at all. Can I see where the POC in the article could say that WoTC didn't care about him or her as a player because of the depiction of the Chult. Yes, I can see where someone might interpret it that way. But, it doesn't affect him or her at all. Just change it in your game.

The effort used to write that article would have been better spent volunteering to right real social injustices or even writing a congressman. As it is, it's intentional clickbait designed to draw traffic to a website.

To be completely honest though, the real story here is that WoTC couldn't find a single writer of african background to contribute on the setting. That's really lame and to me entirely insensitive. Take a week to think about who is writing your content and maybe you avoid this problem altogether.

 

[Shasarak]

I chalk it up to the level of exploration and warfare done to accumulate wealth and survive a more variable climate. Horses, Gunpowder, Sea faring boats and religion all in one place at the right time had a really telling effect on everyone else they touched. The book Guns, Germs and Steel does an ok job of covering much of it if you have the persistence and time to read through it.

There were many Civilisations like the Assyrians, Persians, Romans and Mongols that did pretty good just using the Steel part of that equation. I mean we get the Carthaginian solution from the Romans and they had to do it by hand.